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> History unites us...
Leia_
post Mar 19 2004, 06:20 PM
Post #21


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QUOTE (Haemus @ Mar 19 2004, 03:21 PM)
It's  such a pity that you don't accept the facts then...

What you may see as "facts" I don't.
And there is no way to prove that today's culture, or the culture 1000 years ago was more due to the ones or to the others, for the simple fact that all facts show that Bulgarian's culture is a great mix of so many cultures, most of them said by you in your post.

What I don't accept is that there was a country before Bulgarians came to the Balkans.

Today historians accept that Bulgaria was found not by Asparuh, but by Kubrat.
When I was in 4th grade and started learning history more seriously, I used read a lot of histyory books that I still have. Some 10 years ago historians were more likely to accept that Kubrat's Bulgaria was not the first Bulgarian kingdom. And I have the books written some 20-10 years ago to prove it.

Today historians say that Bulgaria was formed by Kubrat, and existed before Asparuh came to the Balkans. They even talk about "Asparuh's bulgarians", "Kuber's bulgarians", "Alcek's bulgarians".

Btw, tehre is no such thing as "proto-Bulgarians", or what we study in Basic school - "pra-bulgari". It is just something that teachers use to talk about bulgarians before Asparuh and after him. But in the historical sources speak about "bulagrians" only. So in the VIIth century people knew that the Bulgarian country is formed because of the bulgarians, whose country was just moved to a new place.

Now, historians today say that the country was not formed after Asparuh signed a treaty with Byzantium, and not when the treaty with the Slav's rulers was signed. The country was formed before it was moved to the Balkans.
So, Bulgaria existed before it had anything to do with the Slavs that lived in the Balkans.

What you say is that the country was formed by Slavs and Tracians before Bulgarians came, and then when Bulgariabs came, they dimply dominated, but are not the main nucleous around which the contry existed.
It is true that Slav's rulers had control over their terotories in times of peace. But when a war starts, the Bulgarian chan has all the power. If you ask me, that simply means that the chan is in fact the ruler.

And another thing - Slavs and Tracians had their rulers and tribes. But that doesn't mean that they had a country.
They had their culture, and a great part of their culture continued to exist, and exists today, but I believe that Bulgarian's impact was stronger.

Of course this strongly depends on the period, and in different periods both cultures had their peaks in taking decidions about the country. And the culture is a mix of not these three, but of many more who passed through Bulgaria and decided to stay and then had their impact.

And the picture with Thracians is the same. Just that they were a little more than the others.

Anyway, I agree that there is a great chance that any history opinion is wrong. Especially that you can never be sure how great the impact of one culture over the other was. There are little historical sources, and a lot of interpretations, so I've learnet never to take anything for granted.



A friend of mine used to say that truth is born when two people argue over something, so I am open to any opinion and proves.
And I would be ahppy if you could find a way to connect with me via AIM, ICQ or IRC and we could talk it over in real time.


p.s. For the non-Bulgarians who happen to read this and reached to here. Because Bulgaria once moved from one territory to another, historians argue if the year it was found is the year the first country was foundin it's old place by chan Kubrat[around 630], or the year the country was found after it was moved. They are not sure which is the second year though. Some say it is 681, the year when Bulgaria signed a peace treaty with Byzantium. But others say that if a country signs a peace treaty, this means that it was found before that peace treaty was signed. So when Bulgaria singed the treaty, it already existed - they say it was found in 678, or in 680.


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Haemus
post Mar 23 2004, 10:12 AM
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Ok, do you think after year 681 AD all thracians and slavonic population disapeared of our lands - just like that?!
I don't think so - it's naive surching our identity and present ourselves to the World as a hunish folk (who came in the 6th C. AD to settle down in our lands just because they were driven away by the Hazari, Avars and Pechenegs from their previous lands. They came in Moesia and Thrace about 60000 to max 80000, living in tents besides the northern banks of river Donau, "helping" the population in wars against Bizantium...)
These proto-bulgars - they IN PURPOSE assimilated the majority and proclaimed a new state, named Bulgaria... It was known that about 1.5 milion thracians were living by that time on these lands not including the slavs (before the arrival of proto-bulgars). After their arrival the population were treatened and forced even to leave Thracia and settle in Moesia Superior (todays Serbia + Hungary - about 300000 slavs were driven away). Just because proto-bulgars wanted to have a new state in those new lands... The population were forced to accept the new name "bulgarians" - they didn't accept it with "a great" pleasure...
And as I sade, it's such a paradox - talking a slavonic language and calling it "bulgarian", which has nothing to do with the slavonic speach (it's hunnish like - like the one in Hungary, isn't it?!). And this is also a proof of who were the majority and why protobulgars started using the slavonic speach and language?!
So, that's why our roots are different from those ("the bulgarians"). And why we should not tell the World about our origin (many already know it, of course)?! Because it's a tabu or a paradox?!
Yes, I would be happy to discus this matter with you, and I hope it'll be very soon...smile.gif
Take care.
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/thrac/thrac_map.html
http://www.clio.uni-sofia.bg/spec/ethno/ethno_505.html


A link about proto-bulgarians: http://karimullin.narod.ru/knigi/bulgary.htm

"...After the Slavs, the Bulgarians from Kuban were invaded by hazari, a people who had separated from the Kaganat of the turks and took refuge in Pannonia from where, under Alteko Khan, a part of them reached Italy and others led by Kuber ould be mentioned in Macedonia in 670.

Another branch of Bulgarians from Onglos (Bugeac) led by Asparuh, followed by hazari crossed the Danube (between Silistra and Varna) in 679. The last Asian migrators, the Petchenegs, the Cumarians, the Hungarians and the Tatars weren’t able to influence the development of the Romanized populatuon from the Northern side of Danube, who preserved the customs and traditions between Nistru and Tisa..."
http://www.bvau.ro/docs/doc_eng.htm
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Warrame
post Mar 23 2004, 11:37 AM
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This is fascinating...

You know, here we have people who say that Aboriginal history isn't Australian history...

But nothing as indepth as this is. tounge.gif


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ben_kenobi
post Mar 26 2004, 12:38 PM
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Let me see if I got that straight - you're almost blaming the bulgarians for assimilating the native people? smile.gif Strange, you seem to forget that it was the Slavs who assimilated the remnants of the Thracians and the other natives when they settled in the Balkan Peninsula. That's just the way of things - land is never enough, people invade other people's lands and settle there and assimilate them, or are assimilated by them.

You say the Bulgarians moved into the Balkans "just because they were driven away by the Hazari, Avars and Pechenegs from their previous lands". Just because? Isn't that reason enough? Why do you think the Slavs moved in our lands then, did Perun just told them "you are living happily here but I want you to go south into the domains of the Byzantine emperor"? They moved because they had been driven back from the territories they previously occupied, just like the Bulgarians.

QUOTE
it's naive surching our identity and present ourselves to the World as a hunish folk


I'm just curious ... how many blond straight-haired and blue-eyed people do you know and see on the streets? And now compare them to all black-haired and black-eyed people you meet. Doesn't the result mean anything to you?

So you prefer considering yourself as a descendant of a desorganized Slavs tribe rather than of "a hunish folk"? Tell me then, in what ways did the Slavs surpass the Bulgarians? With their culture? Hardly, since they barely had one. Can you tell me of a historical site in Bulgaria made by the Slavs? What culture did they have? They had their deities and idols, erected totems in their honour, built villages of wood ... am I missing something? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall the Slavs building cities and roads, despite the fact that they had inhabited the land for several centuries perhaps. And what did the Bulgarians do when they settled here? This "barbaric folk" as you may call it built cities and fortresses. Of stone. They built roads and aqueducts. Although they led nomadic life they were excellent blacksmiths, they had metal armour and shields, even their horses were armoured with chain-mail, something that very few peoples could afford at that time.

QUOTE
These proto-bulgars - they IN PURPOSE assimilated the majority and proclaimed a new state, named Bulgaria


Yes, you see, here's the difference between Slavs and Bulgarians. Slavs were divided in tribes and couldn't organize a state, while the Bulgarians already had their governing traditions from Kubrat's state. And where the Slavs failed the Bulgarians succeeded - they united the tribes under their rule, firstly in a federation, allowing the Slavs a great level of independance, and consequently subordinated them entirely under their sway. The Bulgarians are the reason we have a country today and I find it normal and fair that this country is called Bulgarua.

I don't deny that our roots are Slavonic as much as Bulgarian but only from a statistical point of view. At firts the Slavs were the dominant population on the Balkans, it's true, but it were the Bulgarians who played the prevailing role in the state and society.


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Leia_
post Mar 26 2004, 08:29 PM
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I agree with every word ben said. Well, Slavs do had some culture, but if you ask me they were completely deorganized. And, besides, theuy signed a treaty with Bulgarians. So, that clearly means that they needed their help to keep away Byzantium's army.

Don't forget that probably the biggest reason why Slavs were not pushed away from the Balkans is the fact that Byzantium had problems with the Arabs.


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ben_kenobi
post Mar 26 2004, 09:07 PM
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Will the moderator please delete this post cause I misread what Leia_ said and posted a complete nonsense. sorry for the inconvenience.


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Blue Harvest
post Apr 2 2004, 10:41 PM
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Don´t worry about it ben. Poodoo happens. wink.gif

Btw, I have been reading your discussion with great interest. My knowledge of Bulgarian history is limited so I take every oppertunity to learn more.


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queeeeeeen
post Apr 3 2004, 04:16 AM
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hmmm...what i most like about united states history...i'd say when president james monroe came up with our foreign policy in 1823 ish. it said something like europe will stay out of affairs in the western hemisphere.

what i don't like is the japanese internment camps during WW2


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Blue Harvest
post Apr 8 2004, 09:41 PM
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All countries have periods in their past they´re not proud of. One has to remember these events and learn from them. Mull over them in a good way, I suppose. Obviously make sure nothing like it happens again.

I just don´t think it´s good to be too ashamed or proud of your contry´s history. (Btw, not saying that you are queeeeeeen. Just venting here.) After all, you can´t chose what country you are born into any more than you can pick the color of your skin or your birth family.

Being a history buff I adore Swedish history. A wonderful bounty of fascinating stories there. However, had I been born Polish, American, Chinese or whatever... I would most likely be equally interested in that country´s history.


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I have a question about voodoo:
If one half of a pair of identical twins has acupuncture... is the other twin in serious trouble?

"Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most." - Ozzy
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Warrame
post Apr 9 2004, 12:34 AM
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Yeah...

Australian history is being killed for school students at the moment- compulsory Australian history and Geography in year 9 and 10, all year, both years, makes you rather apathetic towards it. Even worse, the history covered is only from Federation (1901 onwards). So, it's mainly political history.

*sighs* The sad thing is that Australian history is actually quite interesting. But:

a) A lot of the REALLY interesting stuff happened pre-1901

b) The course is so boring that even the interesting stuff becomes non-interesting.

The aim of it is to give us an awareness of our countrie's history. All it's doing is making us apathetic towards it, and less likely to study history in year 11 and 12.


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Blue Harvest
post Apr 9 2004, 02:01 AM
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Ack! Even a mediocre teacher is better than having a bad one. Doesn´t matter how interesting the subject is if the teacher/study plan kills it. angry.gif

The books we had in our history classes were books on the history of the world really. Additional attention was paid to Swedish history, but thankfully most political stuff was left to our social studies class where it made more sence. I´m very grateful for that approach in my education. It really helped me to think globally.

Looking back at my previous post I realise how much I sound like a broken record. You´ve most likely heard similar stuff from me and other people before. Sorry about that.

I was so frustrated earlier today by an American aquaintance of mine. He´s very patriotic. Very smart guy but he has these (I feel) pre programmed responses to certain situations....

We were discussing propaganda and mind washing (long story) and he started a long rant about how he knew "America´s the greatest country in the world" yadda yadda yadda... and I was like... "Well, now look who´s buying into propaganda. What makes the US the greatest country in the world? Is "the greatest" mearly a moneraty evaluation? How do you know it´s the greatest when you´ve never seen anything else? Who sais it´s the greatest, except for other Americans?"

Aaaaaaanyhoooooo, it scares me sometimes how seemingly rational people never see past their own noses.

Done ranting now. I´m boring even myself. toungewink.gif


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I have a question about voodoo:
If one half of a pair of identical twins has acupuncture... is the other twin in serious trouble?

"Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most." - Ozzy
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queeeeeeen
post Apr 9 2004, 04:56 AM
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i don't think anyone could say their country was the greatest...i think every country's history is sprinkled with bad decisions and such...along with good things of course


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ben_kenobi
post Apr 9 2004, 10:18 AM
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I pretty much like history, too, it's one of my favourite subjects in school, although recently I don't study much for it because I need more time to prepare for other subjects. I would say that our bulgarian history is quite interesting and after all it's more than 1300 years long so there's quite a lot to learn. And our teacher makes the classes even more interesting, I like the way he narrates and comments on it simultaneously.

About propaganda - I find it incredible what it could to people's minds and way of thinking. This year we learn about the world after WWI till what happened a few years ago. I read Oruel's 1984 this summer which left me shocked how propaganda could be used to manipulate people, but I thought "okay, it's only a book, thank the force it hasn't happened". Now throughout this year I was shocked to find out that it's more than only fiction and that such things really happened. I really can't imagine what it would be like to live in such society ... would I too be manipulated by the propaganda, would I buy it and take it at it's face value? *shudders*


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Blue Harvest
post Apr 9 2004, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (ben_kenobi @ Apr 9 2004, 11:18 AM)
would I too be manipulated by the propaganda, would I buy it and take it at it's face value? *shudders*

You know, the mere fact that this question is present in your mind speaks very highly for your not being manipulated. If you continue to take what you read and hear with a grain of salt - the odds are in your favour.

The problem with propaganda is that it´s hard to recognize when you´re right in the middle of it. Some forms of it are easier to distinguish however.

For example: In Swedish media there is often talk about how Sweden is a model society and how delegations from other countries come here to study our politics, health care system, social services etc.

Now, I´m sure this is true to some extent. If I were so inclined I guess I could be lulled into the belief that I live in the greatest country on Earth. The thing is though... the media is saying the exact same thing in other countries as well.

I love Sweden and I think it´s a wonderful place to live. I would never go so far as saying it´s the best place in the world though. If you already think that you´ve reached paradice... how inclined are you to see it´s flaws or help make it even better?


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I have a question about voodoo:
If one half of a pair of identical twins has acupuncture... is the other twin in serious trouble?

"Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most." - Ozzy
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Leia_
post Apr 9 2004, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE (ben_kenobi @ Apr 9 2004, 12:18 PM)
I really can't imagine what it would be like to live in such society ... would I too be manipulated by the propaganda, would I buy it and take it at it's face value? *shudders*

To be honest, I would like to spend some time in such society.

ben, you know how much I love things to be immense and grand. So, I really would like to see what it is like.

But I wouldn't recognize it if I was right in the middle of it.


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Haemus
post Apr 10 2004, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (ben_kenobi @ Apr 9 2004, 10:18 AM)
I would say that our bulgarian history is quite interesting and after all it's more than 1300 years long so there's quite a lot to learn.

About propaganda - I find it incredible what it could to people's minds and way of thinking. .. I really can't imagine what it would be like to live in such society ... would I too be manipulated by the propaganda, would I buy it and take it at it's face value? *shudders*

Our history is MUCH more than 1300 years!!! It already begins in the stoneage with the first European inhabitants - The Thracians. Don't forget our origin is more thracian/slavonic than "bulgarian" ... http://www.bgbooks.net/a&n.html
You are already in such a society, being manipulated.
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Leia_
post Apr 10 2004, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 10 2004, 11:51 AM)
Don't forget our origin is more thracian/slavonic than "bulgarian" ...
You are already in such a society and being manipulated.

I still don't agree with you here....

Even if they lived in the area, that doesn't mean they are our ancestors.

What kind of "manipulation" are you talking about?
eyeball.gif
Every country tries to manipulate the people who live in it, and I suppose that is normal. As Blue said, people are anturally attracted by their own country's history/society/nature and the governing parties are smart enough to use this.

Like, every time someone comes to Bulgaria, they say "I love your nature, your nature is unique"

to quote D_K: "dahh, of course it is unique. Like every other"

I don't believe that if you walk 1 meter outside Bulgaria and step in Greese, Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, or Romania, the grass will be no more green and the sky would be less blue or something....

You just have to look at the things fom both sides, and find the little piece of truth that is there. But not take everything for granted.


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Did you lose yourself way out there? Did you get to be a star?
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Have I told you that I loved you today?
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Blue Harvest
post Apr 10 2004, 11:29 AM
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QUOTE (Leia_ @ Apr 10 2004, 11:24 AM)
You just have to look at the things fom both sides, and find the little piece of truth that is there. But not take everything for granted.

Exactly. It's when people simply accept the "facts" they are presented with, without giving a thought to a possible other side to the issue, that you get in trouble.

People are gullible. It's a well known fact. Other people are bound to take advantage of it if it serves their purpose.


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I have a question about voodoo:
If one half of a pair of identical twins has acupuncture... is the other twin in serious trouble?

"Of all the things I've lost. I miss my mind the most." - Ozzy
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Haemus
post Apr 10 2004, 11:47 AM
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QUOTE (Leia_ @ Apr 10 2004, 10:24 AM)
Even if they lived in the area, that doesn't mean they are our ancestors.

What kind of "manipulation" are you talking about?
I don't believe that if you walk 1 meter outside Bulgaria and step in Greese, Turkey, Macedonia, Serbia, or Romania, the grass will be no more green and the sky would be less blue or something....

They STILL live in the area, it's us... What do you think, where did they disappear?!

Prehistory
"Primitive tribes were living on Bulgarian soil as far back as the Neolithic period (40,000-10,000 BC). Around 3000 BC the Thracian people arrived and settled in the area now known as the valley of Thrace. They lived by breeding cattle, making ceramics or working gold and copper. They carried on trade with the Dacians (Romanians), Mycennaen Greeks, Illyrians and the Macedonians.

About 300 BC, one of the tribes, called the Odrysses, laid the foundations for the Thracian state which flourished during two centuries, despite invasions from Scythians, Sarmatians and Celts. In 29 BC the Thracian hero Spartacus resisted a Roman invasion but in 45 AD the Romans finally managed to crush resistance and the Thracian state became part of the Roman Empire. By 300 AD the weakness of the Roman Empire led to invasions from the North of Visigoths, Huns and Ostrogoths, when Thracian villages were burned and plundered. When the Roman Empire was divided in 395 AD Thrace remained under the jurisdiction of Byzantium.

In the late 5th and early 6th centuries Slav tribes arrived from the North. Seven of these tribes invaded the Danube Plain which was called the Moesia Region at this time. When the Byzantines tried to reconquer this territory the Slav tribes united to resist and thus formed a Slavonic state. Around 650 AD the Bulgars, a Turkic-Tartar tribe, were forced to emigrate from the Russian Plains. One third moved South under the leadership of Tartar Khan Asparuh and settled on the Thracian plain.

First Bulgarian state
In 681 AD the Bulgars defeated the Byzantine army and united themselves with the Slavonic tribes against the Byzantines, founding the first Bulgarian state. This new state was governed by a khan with the help of Slavic princes. There was a period of assimilation for 200 years which created a nationality which took the name of the Bulgar but culturally was strongly influenced by Slavonic civilisation."
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/Bulgaria/history/index.htm

If you'd go to Romania you'll hear that they consider themselves as Dacians. In Greece they call their own country Ellada - not Greece. In Macedonia they identify themselves AS Macedonians.

"To samata nauka e chesto oruzie v rucete na politicite, ta kamo li neshto guvkavo i podatlivo kato istoriata. A poneze i sam choveka preziviava vsiako sabitie razlichno to istoriata ima i personalna interpretacia. Da rechem v "Moita Odiseia" na Stefan Gruev kude ti da govorim za uzasite na Vtorata Svetovna voina. Choveka minal leko. Ja pitai edna Ukraisnka babka i edna Praveshka babka kakvo misljat za Svetovnata voina, da vidish razlika v interpretaciite. Hristianstvoto pone ima niakakva struktura, edna samo kniga i opredelen broi doktrini i pak e uchudvashto che ima tolkova malko denominacii za 2000 godini".
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Leia_
post Apr 10 2004, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 10 2004, 01:47 PM)
In Macedonia they identify themselves AS Macedonians.

Excuse me for laughing that hard, but...

Oh dear... Consider yourself manipulated...

Macedonians believe they are ancestors to Alexander the great, who was in fact a greek... So, you say that people who live in the area, known as "Thracia" are thracians? And that the people who live in Northern Bulgaria are "Dubrudgans"

Congratulations, ben - we are now officially members of two different cultures...


The people who lived in the area thousands of years ago died out and were assimilated.


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Did you lose yourself way out there? Did you get to be a star?
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Have I told you that I loved you today?
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And don't it make you sad to know that life is more than who we are?
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th January 2018 - 08:46 AM