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> History unites us...
Warrame
post Apr 10 2004, 12:34 PM
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Okay, I'm putting this argument into context for myself... feel free to ignore...

Aboriginal history IS Australian history. But I personally have no Aboriginal blood in me. So, they're not my ancestors, per se.

And the situtation down here is a bit different to the one you two are discussing. In Australia, Aboriginal culture is still prominant today, and, up until 200 years the tribal cultures of Aboriginals was the only culture.

But the culture you two are discussing lived 3000-4000 years ago? What's happened since then? Did it die out, or something?

(Sorry if you've mentioned this, I'm tired...)


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Haemus
post Apr 10 2004, 12:49 PM
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QUOTE (Leia_ @ Apr 10 2004, 12:24 PM)
Macedonians believe they are ancestors to Alexander the great, who was in fact a greek... So, you say that people who live in the area, known as "Thracia" are thracians? And that the people who live in Northern Bulgaria are "Dubrudgans"


The people who lived in the area thousands of years ago died out and were assimilated.

No, they don't believe they are ancestors to the protobulgars as some of us do.
What I say is that we are more of thracian + slavonic origin than protobulgarian, but you seem to twist the things which is sadly...
Easy for you to say: "The people who lived in the area thousands of years died out and were assimilated" Do you really think so?!
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Haemus
post Apr 10 2004, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Warrame @ Apr 10 2004, 12:34 PM)
But the culture you two are discussing lived 3000-4000 years ago? What's happened since then? Did it die out, or something?

(Sorry if you've mentioned this, I'm tired...)

A good question! They didn't die out and they didn't diapear! It's such a paradox... We are selfdenying our origin! Just because our country is named Bulgaria doesn't mean the majority of us have a protobulgarian origin - we don't even speak their language?!

"Western Bulgars led by Asparukh founded Bulgaria in 681 when they invaded the area, united and assimilated with its earlier Slavic and Thracian inhabitants".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars
http://www.hunmagyar.org/tatar/bulgar.html
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/russia/avarbulg.html
http://www.bartleby.com/65/bu/Bulgars.html
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ben_kenobi
post Apr 11 2004, 02:51 PM
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I knew I was a member of a national minority, I just couldn't prove it until now wink.gif yeah Leia_, and you are a descendant of the Thracians perhaps, or the Romans that conquered them ... or even of the Greeks that colonised the coast of the Black Sea laugh.gif

You know, Haemus, it's nice you give us so detailed history of the Thracians but I wonder if you realise that their history ends with the year 395AD and from that point on only Slavs and Bulgarians are mentioned. Ok, you think they didn't just die out ... and you're right, of course, there are always some descendants. When the Slavs invaded the Balkan Peninsula, they settled everywhere, but most of them went south of the Danube river. Those who remained north of it were eventually assimilated by the Dacians [a tribe kindred with the Thracians who inhabited the now called Thracian plane south of the Balkans] because they were too little so perhaps the Romanians are right to consider themselves their inheritants. The other part of the Slavs settled south of the Danube and assimilated the remains of the Thracians, who as a matter of fact were already romanised and even spoke Roman [a simple dialect of Latin used by the folksmen to be correct]. Apparently they couldn't assimilate them entirely because there are a few minorities known today that are their descendants. The thracians that weren't assimilated were called Vlasi during the Medieval ages and they occupied the higher mountains, scattered in something like clans, and from there they moved in the whole Balkan Peninsula. More compact groups of them remained only in the mountain called Pind in bulgarian that is located somewhere in Greece I believe, and that account refers to the past, I don't know if there are some of them left there nowadays. There is another group called Vlasi, they are located mainly in the cities and towns on the south coast of the Danube and they settled there during the time of the Ottoman Empire, because the taxes in the Empire were lower than those in Romania, but I'm not sure if they have anything to do with the Thracians. Another descendants of the Thracians are the Karakachans, actually they are descendants of that part of tha Thracians that had been already Hellenized and so they spoke Greek and still use many greek words in their language. They are known for their nomadic type of life which is one of the main reasons to avoid assimilations - being shepherds they travel all the time, moving from mountains in South Bulgaria to mountains in Greece and because they don't accept foreigners among them they've been able to preserve their culture and traditions ... I think smilesmall.gif Anyway, the only thing we have inherited from the Thracians are the so called Kuker games, nestinarstvo (fire-dancing) and of course - the vine-growing and wine production.

QUOTE
because our country is named Bulgaria doesn't mean the majority of us have a protobulgarian origin - we don't even speak their language?!


If everyone in the state were Slavs and the Bulgarians were such a minority why would they call their country Bulgaria then? Yes, we don't speak the language the bulgarians spoke at that time and there are only a few thousand words preserved from it, but we definitely don't speak thracian, right? And the language we speak now has greatly evolved during the centuries so we can't say we speak the language the Slavs spoke, either. Yer, there are more Slavonic words preserved in it than old bulgarian ones, but the language has been improved many times and guess who improved it - we, Bulgarians, did. That's why we call this language Bulgarian, otherwise we would just call it Slavonic. And I already told you that the Slavs were only statistically predominant, and that was only in the beginning. If we were from slavonic origin and not bulgarian most of us would be blond with blue eyes. Well, guess what - we aren't. We, or at least most of us, are (to quote Leia_ smile.gif ) pure bulgarians - with black hair. And what about the culture? The Thracians at least left quite a rich cultural heritage in the form of tombs, pottery and decorations. And I don't recall the Slavs to even have such thing as a culture.

And you are right about the Greeks - they do call their country Elada (Hellas in English), and they also call France Gaul. It's my own opinion that they pretend to live in the past when there was such thing as Great Hellas. Why don't you ask someone from France if they think of themselves as gauls to see how historically correct those views are? And I won't even dare to comment on the Macedonians thinking that we Bulgarians are actually Macedonians cause I might start a war, they are quite touchy when it comes to history, they've arrested Bulgarians and beaten the hell out of them just because they said they were Bulgarians, not Macedonians, and they claim that some of the famous bulgarian authors are Macedonians too. Recently I even heard they claim Kiril and Metody to be Macedonians as well. So you see, people believe in what they want to believe, no matter how absurd this is, so I'm not that surprised that you believe in this slavonic+(mind you smilesmall.gif )thracian origin, ok, it's fine with me, we heard you, we understood you, just stop repeating "our history is much larger than 1300 years, we are all thracians" etc. like some tiresome refrain, expecting us to absorb every word you say just because you think it's so, or if you're so keen on repeating it at least the next time adduce some arguments to what you say, not these completely irrelevant to our discussion sites which contain the history of the bulgarians before coming to the Balkans, the history of the Thracians before the bulgarians came, the history of the Volga bulgarians and even an online bookshop, really everything else save for what we are talking about. So please if you wish to finish this discussion be rational.


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Haemus
post Apr 11 2004, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (ben_kenobi @ Apr 11 2004, 02:51 PM)

QUOTE
You know, Haemus, it's nice you give us so detailed history of the Thracians but I wonder if you realise that their history ends with the year 395AD and from that point on only Slavs and Bulgarians are mentioned.


"Mentioned" - right... but if we don't mention somebody doesn't mean he/she doesn't excist for that reason! They weren't wiped out and gone for god's sake... even if they later on were a province in The Roman empire (they stayed very much alive)! It even doesn't matter if they mixed with the slavs - we still have their genes in our bodies. I just don't understand why you keep denying our origin?
And for your information, if you really look at today's bulgarians - about 30% are lighthaired or blond and AT LEAST another 30% have brown hair with with green-brown eyes. So please, don't try to covince me we all are blackhaired with black eyes! The fact that we speak a slavonic language also tell us who of all are the majority.
Come on, it's radiculous - you can not delude the World with your "facts"!

QUOTE
If everyone in the state were Slavs and the Bulgarians were such a minority why would they call their country Bulgaria then?

Do you really think these people accepted with a GREAT plesure the name Bulgarians?! Did you know that about 300 000 slavs were driven away from Moesia to todays Hungary with strategic reasons, did you know that the protobulgars were't that kind and spread fear amoung the rest of the population -when they established the new bulgarian state - and they wanted the new state to be called Bulgaria, that's why.

QUOTE
And the language we speak now has greatly evolved during the centuries so we can't say we speak the language the Slavs spoke, either.

Yes, almost all european languages have evolved, but that's not a reason to say we don't speak a slavonic language. I understand very well serbs, kroats, slovenes or russians when I talk with them.

QUOTE
And I already told you that the Slavs were only statistically predominant, and that was only in the beginning.

Oh yes, no kidding! "Only statistically predominant" - and what happened then when they no longer were "statistically predominant" - did more protobulgarians come?!
Stop fooling yourself, this is too much!

QUOTE
Well, guess what - we aren't. We, or at least most of us, are (to quote Leia_ smile.gif ) pure bulgarians - with black hair. And what about the culture? The Thracians at least left quite a rich cultural heritage in the form of tombs, pottery and decorations. And I don't recall the Slavs to even have such thing as a culture.


Don't tell me to adduce some relevant arguments - so are the facts! It's you who should come with some sensible ones, because no one of the European historians will believe to what you are trying to say.

QUOTE
...just stop repeating "our history is much larger than 1300 years, we are all thracians" etc. like some tiresome refrain

I never said that we all are thracians, just try to read my lines more corectly. And why should I stop saying it - is that issue some kind of a tabu?! You just stop gloryfying and putting to a pedestal the protobulgarians - they aren't the only ones living our country! HISTORY SHOULD UNITE US...as the name of the topic says.
That's all I have to say to you!
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Leia_
post Apr 11 2004, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 11 2004, 08:13 PM)
Stop fooling yourself, this is too much!

I think you are the one that is "fooling" himself

QUOTE
You just stop gloryfying and putting to a pedestal the protobulgarians - they aren't the only ones living our country!  HISTORY SHOULD UNITE US...as the name of the topic says.

Well, it doesn't mean you have to tell lies and things that can never be certain...
So, if there are no evidences that Thracians existed after 400AD, how are you so sure they existed?


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Haemus
post Apr 11 2004, 06:36 PM
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QUOTE (Leia_ @ Apr 11 2004, 06:25 PM)
Well, it doesn't mean you have to tell lies and things that can never be certain...
So, if there are no evidences that Thracians existed after 400AD, how are you so sure they existed?

Evidence...can you give me evidence that they don't "excisted" after 400AD? Did they a journey to another planet?! I think you should start reading history then (not from the Bulgarian point of view but of the European - to get some more objectivity )! Come on, this is comical!
And I don't tell any lies here - this are facts! Start reading history - I can give you some more links to bookstores.
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Leia_
post Apr 11 2004, 06:51 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 11 2004, 08:36 PM)
Start reading history! I can give you more links to some bookstores.

I don't need to read books that ANYBODY can write.

Do you knwo that a candidate for a president or something in an European country used to say that he is "expert in Bulgaria" and said all kinds of stupid and illogical stuff. Like - they live in huts, they eat dead cats, etc...

And he was a guest in a local tv show, and he was asked what he thinks about Bulgaria's capital - Budapest, and he said "yeah I've been there, it is full of stray dogs, donkeys, ther eis no electricity... etc" ... The "expert" didn't even know the name of the contry's capital!!! And mistook it for Romania's capital. And he wanted to be a president....
Now, if the books and websites you send me are written by such people... And I suppose they are... Welll, I don't want to read them...

I've read and continue to read about my country's history...

But


IF THERE ARE NO EVIDENCES THAT THEY EXISTED... HOW CAN A BOOK CONVINCE YOU THEY DID?

That doesn't sound pretty mature...


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Haemus
post Apr 11 2004, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE
I don't need to read books that ANYBODY can write.

I suggest you don't read books of ANYBODY or of some presidents, but of real historians. I promise, you'll learn much more than you think.

QUOTE
Now, if the books and websites you send me are written by such people... And I suppose they are...

Dont't just suppose - try findng history facts. There are plenty of historians in Europe which don't write Micky Mouse books.

QUOTE
IF THERE ARE NO EVIDENCES THAT THEY EXISTED... HOW CAN A BOOK CONVINCE YOU THEY DID?
That doesn't sound pretty mature...

How much more evidence do you need? Isn't it enough all the remains we have in our country?! A lot of researches have already been done. They stayed without moving to Patagonia. Don't you understand what I mean?
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Leia_
post Apr 11 2004, 07:34 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 11 2004, 09:25 PM)
They stayed without moving to Patagonia. Don't you understand what I mean?

no, I don't understand. What I understand is that you are not very serious... Not that I mind. Anyway, I understand your point of view and respect it...
But you are so sure you are right that you don't want to hear anyone. So.. I don't see why I should continue this discussion, cause it is not a discussion anymore.

I've said what I think on the matter.


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Leia_
post Apr 12 2004, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 11 2004, 09:25 PM)
Dont't just suppose - try findng history facts. There are plenty of historians in Europe which don't write Micky Mouse books.

Just to tell you how many stupid and false information is there, even in the most trusted sources. Like Discovery chanel for instance.
I am watching a documentary about the Stealth technology, and I can tell you taht I heard a lot of stupid things there.
  1. American soldier, who says that during the "desert storm" operation they only destroyed military targets. The pilot said "we don't want to harm civilians". In the same time, during that "harmless" operation were estroyed a lot of hospitals, schools, cinemas... Is a hospital a military target? What kind of a person are you to blow a hospital? Especially in a war? But no - there were no mistakes. Only military targets were destroyed... That's it with true information. And the poeple who made the documentary don't write Mickey Mouse.
  2. During the missions in Kosovo, they sent a plane, that was meant to fight against nuclear force. Yugoslavia - a nuclear force? And they said that their bombs didn't distract more than 5 meters from the target.

    And still, during that war a bomb fell in a house in Sofia. And not - Sofia is not 5 meters away from the border. It is at least 50 kilometers. Still, they said that all of their targets were hit precisely. So, that means that during a war in Kosovo, their pilots aim at a house that is at least 300 kilometres from Kosovo. In both ways they are not telling the truth. And that is a reliable source like Discovery channel. As I said - they do not write for Mickey Mouse.
And the sad thing is that one day someone like you would believe these "facts" [they are not "facts, they are lies] and will try to convince someone else that what really happened didn't. That's what I am talkign about saying taht EVERYONE can make a website. Do you want me to make a website about how we are ancestors of the Indians and then put Bojidar Dimitrov's name on the website? [Bojidar Dimitrov is the museum director of the National Historical Museum. Will you believe it? I can do it. And I can even put it in google for people like you, who believe everything to see it.

oh, and another thing that made me mad, and has no relatuion to this conversation.
One of the pilots who flew B-2 in Kosovo said that they bombed in the night and the people down on the earth didn't know what is happening and thought they were exploading by themselves...confusedbig.gif
WHat the?
What do they think about us? We live in huts and believe that gods are angry and make the hospitals blow up by themselves??? After the day ot was clear that there will be a war in Kosovo, every newspaper had an article about the Stealth technology. Every television had a documentary about it. We don't live in huts. But it appears that some of us would believe everything....

I'm telling you again - don't believe everything you read. Especially when someone tries to convince you in something, and he/she doesn't even have the proves to do it.


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Haemus
post Apr 12 2004, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE
But you are so sure you are right that you don't want to hear anyone.
I've been hearing this version of our history so many times... in school in Bulgaria. And I realise now how wrong it is - to let us think we all are of protobulgarian origin, gloryfying them and neglecting the other group of people...It was a kind of a brainwashing. But the facts about our origin speak different language you see. So, "When the fact are talking even the Gods are listerning"

QUOTE
Just to tell you how many stupid and false information is there, even in the most trusted sources.

And only in Bulgaria we have the "right" information and everything is very very thrue and reliable. No kidding.
Anyway, I am glad that this is an international forum and other people may get interested ans start reading some sources about our ethnicity. Just to be sure that we have slavonic/thracian origin too.
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Leia_
post Apr 12 2004, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 12 2004, 03:19 PM)
Just to be sure that we have slavonic/thracian origin too.

It seems that you don't really know what you believe in. A page ago you said that we are purely slavonic/thracian, and denied that we had anything bulgarian [I still say tghat there is no thing as "proto-bulgarian"]. And now yu say that it is both. Maybe on the next page you wuill claim that we are purely bulgarian and have nothing slavonic in us...

I don't say that our sorces are right. I say that your sorces are not.

There is a huge huge huge difference.


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Have I told you that I loved you today?
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Warrame
post Apr 12 2004, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (Leia_ @ Apr 12 2004, 01:31 PM)
I don't say that our sorces are right. I say that your sorces are not.

Just popping into this interesting discussion again to ask... Leia_? Can I use this quote as a sig? Pretty please? smilehuge.gif


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Leia_
post Apr 12 2004, 03:02 PM
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QUOTE (Warrame @ Apr 12 2004, 04:42 PM)
Just popping into this interesting discussion again to ask... Leia_? Can I use this quote as a sig? Pretty please? smilehuge.gif

Only if you allow the pink cat to play with Murgy. laugh.gif
j/k
Feel free to use it laugh.gif


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Haemus
post Apr 13 2004, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE
A page ago you said that we are purely slavonic/thracian, and denied that we had anything bulgarian

"Purely"??...you don't seem to read my lines properly. I've been always saying that we have MORE slavonic/thracian origin THAN protobulgarian. Please, read carefully before writting these statements! Today's bulgarians are NOT the same people as the protobulgarians - that's why it is neccessary to use the term "protobulgarians". By the way, it's not me who's denying but you - because you deny your roots...

QUOTE
I don't say that our sorces are right. I say that your sorces are not.

How come you are so sure about my sources?! And who authorizes you to do this conclusion? Read some sources - from some Bulgarian historians then: prof. Venedikov, Alexander Fol, Dimitar Popov, Alexander Bonev, Zlatozara Gocheva, Diana Gergova, Tatiana Shaltanova or Krasimir Letzakov. They might be more reliable to you, but you'll still find the same assertion there.
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Leia_
post Apr 13 2004, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE (Haemus @ Apr 13 2004, 07:36 PM)
How come you are so sure about my sources?! And who authorizes you to do this conclusion?

Did you read my post?

Go read it again then...

And about the origin.. well, whatever you say... But I still think that you were saying a different thing before...


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Have I told you that I loved you today?
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Haemus
post Apr 14 2004, 11:45 AM
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QUOTE
And about the origin.. well, whatever you say... But I still think that you were saying a different thing before...


Oh my dear... WHERE was I saying "different things"??? Everybody can read through all my postings and will not find such a thing!
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wandrella
post Jan 30 2005, 11:29 PM
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I'm not sure if this belongs here, but what do you guys know about Finland ? smilehuge.gif
It's nice to hear what do people from other countries know of your country smile.gif
Sorry for my bad English tounge.gif


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thedarkwarrior I...
post Jan 31 2005, 10:44 AM
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Make me a remark if I am mistaking. wink.gif
Finland = Suomi
Finland has been a province/colony subordinate to Russia (and for a little time to USSR) till the first decades of the 20th sentory.


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