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> Why can't Leia catch a break in the books?
Leiafan
post Apr 8 2009, 07:47 AM
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Warning: if you are a huge fan of Mara and find criticism of her offensive, I advise that you skip this thread. While I will not use swear words, as that is against the rules, and I will not be rude, which is also against the rules, I do have very strong opinions and I will state them.

I've been rude in the past, and the people I wish to apologize to know who they are. So, to them: I am sorry.


I liked the Han/Leia interaction in "Millennium Falcon." It's nice to see them get a little happiness after being put through nonstop misery for 20 or more books. I'm glad Mara died, but IMO I didn't like seeing her die as a martyr (and she didn't even BEGIN to deserve being put on the same level as Obi Wan and Yoda), plus it annoyed me that Jacen went bad and killed her...because I knew it meant Han and Leia would lose another child. I had to wonder...if Leia had been the one who got killed, would there have been such a mad frenzy to find and kill her murderer? Somehow I doubt it, being as her accomplishments are downplayed, if not ignored outright, and she is listed as "a former diplomat" in the Dramatis Personae, while Mara was listed as a "Jedi Master," when I have yet to see any evidence that she deserved that title.

I heard that Timothy Zahn is going to pen a follow-up to "Allegiance," aka the novel in which Mara is presented as being Palpatine's REAL Sith Apprentice, who is so powerful that Vader fears her, but at the same time, she is NEVER DARK and is "actually doing the work of a Jedi," because her service to Palpatine is "selfless." I wonder what's so "selfless" about enjoying a pampered, luxurious lifestyle, in which she has "power, prestige and respect," to quote none other than Mara herself (by way of telling Luke why he deserved to die for taking her wonderful life from her, in Zahn's own Thrawn Trilogy), is evidence of "selfless service," much less "the work of a Jedi."

But then, Luke did make her a Jedi Master and allowed her to run roughshod over everything the Jedi are supposed to stand for, never once questioning the wisdom of putting that bad-tempered, arrogant, mean-spirited, self-absorbed, violent, insensitive woman in charge of vulnerable young Jedi-in-training. I wanted to smack him. Is it any wonder Mara's "apprentice," Jaina, flirted with the Dark Side -- and became an insufferable brat who treated her mother like garbage and should have had her teeth slapped out of her nasty, disrespectful little head -- in the NJO?

I honestly don't know why there needs to be continued glorification of Mara. She will never, EVER supersede Leia as premier heroine, no matter how many titles she's handed or how many times Leia is demoted and insulted. Luke and Mara will never, EVER be a better, closer couple than Han and Leia, no matter how many times they are described as "being a team in a way that Han and Leia can never understand," or how many times Leia wonders if Han loves her as much as Luke loves Mara, or how many times Luke's past relationships are downplayed and disregarded so Mara is "the only woman Luke ever loved," or how many times that Bria woman is brought up and described as Han's "first love."

I might add that both Han's creator and portrayer have said in no uncertain terms that, while Han had had girlfriends before he met Leia, Leia is the first woman he has ever truly loved/fallen in love with. So why can't he say so, or think so, in the books, especially since Luke repeatedly thanks the Force for Mara being in his life, as she's "all he ever wanted, more than he deserves"? (It's sad to see Luke sell himself so short.) Again, it just seems like Mara enjoys deference and respect that she hasn't earned. More than that, it seems like that Bria enjoys deference and respect that SHE hasn't earned. Why is it okay to trample all over Luke's past relationships and rewrite them as meaningless, but Bria's status as Han's "first love" is kept sacrosanct?

Han and Leia got their closeness as a couple and as a "team" the old-fashioned way: by earning it. Luke and Mara were handed theirs, via a "Force bond" that came out of nowhere, and apparently "filled in all the gaps"...which to me seems like a substitute for a deep and close relationship, not a deep and close relationship in and of itself. Han and Bria? Oh, please -- Bria ran away at the first sign of conflict. Han and Leia, on the other hand, survived (among other things) carbon-freezing, mutliple instances of torture, the death of a dear friend who was like a member of the family, heavy drinking, a lengthy and painful separation, and the deaths of two of their children -- and they are a team without having to rely on a "Force bond." So why is it so hard for the authors to give them the respect they're due, but so easy for those same authors to respect Luke/Mara, and hold up Bria as Han's "first love"?

While I am definitely grateful for "Tatooine Ghost" and the personal scenes that Han and Leia got in the last third or so of the NJO, I really don't think it's too much to ask for Han and Leia to be shown the respect as a couple that they have more than earned. It also would be nice to see Leia be shown the respect as a character that she has more than earned.

Someone told me that the trials she was forced to endure in the NJO were a way of showing how strong she was. Odd, because Mara didn't go through even a fraction of what Leia did, and she was repeatedly described as strong, powerful, and brave -- even as an ideal that other characters wanted to live up to, or wished that their family members could live up to. Leia, on the other hand, had to wait until the NJO was almost over before another character noticed how steadfast she had remained in the face of one tragedy and torment after another. It's also worth noting that Leia is the only Force-sensitive member of her family to never even be tempted by the Dark Side. I would think that that alone would be enough to guarantee that she not be dismissed as "inept" and "weak" and "uncertain in the Force."

Other people have told me that "it doesn't matter." Well, I happen to think it does matter. A lot.


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Leiafan
post Apr 8 2009, 07:57 AM
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In "Allegiance," Palpatine refers to Mara as "my child," and it is claimed more than once that Vader fears her, actually regards her as a rival, and she could beat him in a fight. Yeah, right, in Mara's dreams! Not only that, but Zahn does everything he can to whitewash Mara's past -- she's "just doing her job," totally untainted by the Dark Side even though she's uber-powerful and was trained by a Sith Lord. So the "unsaved" Mara is completely pure, yet so powerful that Vader regards her as a rival and fears her. That sounds like blatant glorification of Mara to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Zahn's forthcoming book was more of the same.

The books go out of their way to assure the readers that Mara is Luke's first love, true love, etc. Luke assures Mara that he never slept with Shira Brie. Callista has been downgraded to meaninglessness, even though Luke in fact loved her very much and wanted to marry her.

I just don't think it is fair that Mara gets to be Luke's first love, his past relationships downgraded into nothing, while Bria's status as Han's "first love" is treated with such respect. Some people have asked me, "What, do you think Han never had any girlfriends before he met Leia?" No, of course I don't think that. A guy as good-looking, charming, and funny as Han would have had many girlfriends/lovers. But he had never been IN LOVE before he met Leia.

Sex is not the same thing as love. Han as a casual man who went from girlfriend to girlfriend, but then suddenly, when he least expects it, finds himself falling in love with Leia, a woman who not only seems unaffected by his good looks but who actually bosses him around...that makes sense to me. Han as a mushy, treacly-mouthed sap who pines over some dumb twit like Bria for 10 years... that does NOT make sense to me.

Now, there have been scenes in the NJO and so forth where Han thinks about how he doesn't want to be anyplace but with Leia. That's great. But why not take the next step and say that she is the first woman he truly loved, or that she's his first love? For those who might say that Han regarding Leia as his first love would "rewrite history," I would point out that the minimizing of Luke's past relationships, including the one with Callista, is a very blatant rewrite of history. History has been repeatedly rewritten to accommodate and benefit Mara. Why can't it be rewritten to accommodate and benefit Leia, who IMO deserves such deference far more than Mara?

I might add that Bria herself was a rewrite of history -- she formed the Rebellion (so did 10 other characters) she found the Death Star plans (so did 10 other characters), and she's Han's "first love" even though the novelization for "Return of the Jedi" says that Han had never known love before he met Leia. We're also supposed to think that Han was devastated and torn apart by grief when he heard about Bria's death...even though in the timeline, he's just about to meet Luke and Obi Wan in the Mos Eisley cantina . The Han I saw in that scene and the subsequent scenes seemed quite cheerful to me; he's even cannoodling with a "wench" in the novelization and script. Odd behavior for someone who's supposed to be devastated and torn apart by grief.

It puzzles me why "gap" novels, which fill in the spaces between the movies and so forth, keep focusing on Mara, when there are all kinds of other stories that could be explored instead. People claim Mara is overwhelmingly popular. Is she? I mean, the basis for that belief is a SW Insider poll taken more than 10 years ago, in which she was voted 20th in a list of 20 Favorite SW Characters, the only purely EU character to make the list. Her popularity took several hits during the NJO, when she was bumped up to "major character" status and started accumulating all those titles and so forth that she hadn't earned, and even was described as a "surrogate mother" to Jaina -- although Mara never even knew Jaina until Jaina was almost fully grown.

Jaina's nastiness toward Leia was described as "realistic -- a teenager rebelling against her mother." The "realism" argument for all the torment and heartbreak that Leia, especially, endured in the NJO didn't wash...because it seemed almost all of the "realism" was aimed at her, and at the Solo family in general. Mara, on the other hand, was totally immune from the "realism." Even her supposedly "fatal disease" had no adverse effect on her beauty, libido, or ability to kick butt. In fact, it seemed to be a beauty elixir and fountain of youth for her -- she emerged from it looking younger and more beautiful than ever, and she and Luke boinked like rabbits all the way through. I also found it very odd that the cover of the book in which Mara got killed, she was shown as looking like she was 25. Luke, on the back cover, looked his age -- pushing 60 -- and he is supposed to be the same age as Mara, give or take a year.


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 9 2009, 04:24 PM
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Leiafan--I don't think any of the characters are catching a break since the Battle of Endor. That being said....

plus it annoyed me that Jacen went bad and killed her
^I too don't like that part. I wish they made someone else go dark and do whatever, not Jacen. And if Luke was so gun-ho about saving his father, why wasn't he like that with his nephew? Vader did far worse than Jacen did.

if Leia had been the one who got killed, would there have been such a mad frenzy to find and kill her murderer?
^Of course there would be, I don't really know why you couldn't think there wouldn't be. She used to be the Chief of State, did many heroic deeds, saved many people, is Luke's twin, Han's wife, Jaina's mother, everyone's friend. I think there would be a whole host of people out looking for her.

while Mara was listed as a "Jedi Master," when I have yet to see any evidence that she deserved that title.
^Mara played her part and seemed to be sorry for what she's done in the past. Just the way her former life is brought up, she wants to hear none of it. Leia has achieved a lot in her past and present. I don't think she's downplayed at all, whenever something happens she's right there trying to fix the problem and using her statsis and whatever else to get things that Luke or any other NRI couldn't.
NRI=New Republic Intelligence (I tend to abbreviate a lot)

I heard that Timothy Zahn is going to pen a follow-up to "Allegiance,"
^I heard about that too, which it seems cool, but I wonder if he can do other books. He always seems to do just Thrawn and Mara; I'd like to see him do some future SW books.

she is NEVER DARK and is "actually doing the work of a Jedi,"
^I disagree. She's Palpatine's right hand person--what are they called--that's it Emperor's Hand. She's killing people for him and killing is the work of the dark side and Palpatine was a Sith. So she's doing the work of a Sith and is dark because she has the Force and chooses to use it in evil ways.

by way of telling Luke why he deserved to die for taking her wonderful life from her, in Zahn's own Thrawn Trilogy)
^To her, it was a wonderful life and she loved her job very much. Luke took that from her, in her eyes, as she thought he had killed Palpatine and Palpatine did die as the DS2 blew up. It's like if someone here took over your job even though you're a better candidate for the position, wouldn't you have a grudge against them a bit? Any normal person would.

But then, Luke did make her a Jedi Master
^She turned away from the dark, paid her dues, didn't like mentioning her past because of what she'd done. Luke did the same to Kyp Durron when he turned away and was sorry too.

and allowed her to run roughshod over everything the Jedi are supposed to stand for, never once questioning the wisdom of putting that bad-tempered, arrogant, mean-spirited, self-absorbed, violent, insensitive woman in charge of vulnerable young Jedi-in-training.
^I don't think she was like that at all, maybe when she was younger and the Emperor's Hand, but not as a Jedi Master.

Mara's "apprentice," Jaina, flirted with the Dark Side
^It wasn't Mara's fault. Jacen had been captured, probably died she thought as their twin bond wasn't there and Anakin had just died. I think anyone would be upset to the point of going where Jaina did. And while she was brought back, I don't think anyone would blame her either.

and became an insufferable brat who treated her mother like garbage and should have had her teeth slapped out of her nasty, disrespectful little head -- in the NJO?
^Have you've ever seen a teenager or someone in their twenties that acted like a teenager that needed a good slapping? I have and I've heard about it too from other parents, Jaina was acting out like anyone does--should Mara have stopped that? Maybe, b/c she's her aunt, but it's not always her place. Leia is the one who should've told her daughter to stop or Han, they're her parents.

So why can't he say so, or think so, in the books,
^Han still has that tough boy/man thing going on in the books and may find that silly to say to Leia. "Hey I love you", he says it in different ways by giving her, her own co-pilot chair or telling her she looks lovely or in other ways and Leia knows this.

It also would be nice to see Leia be shown the respect as a character that she has more than earned.
^Maybe you skip those parts cause I always see Leia held in high regard everywhere she goes and everyone she meets they're "wow it's Leia Solo" or "whoa, it's Leia-Luke's brother, former Chief of State"....and on and on go the wow's in the universe about her. I think you're either missing them seriously cause it happens in the books a lot.

because Mara didn't go through even a fraction of what Leia did
^Mara went through the trials in her own way during, I think it was Vision of the Future. Just like Kyp destroyed the Sun Crusher and we knew he'd be alright from now on, so was Mara when she destroyed her ship. In a way that was her last trial to become a Jedi or Jedi Master. And besides Leia wanted to go through it all she told Saba; she wanted to earn it like all the other Jedi had (yes even Mara).

I would think that that alone would be enough to guarantee that she not be dismissed as "inept" and "weak" and "uncertain in the Force."
^Very true, but again Leia said she didn't want her statsis as a diplomat or anything else come in the way, she wanted to go through all that. If I remember right, I think Han (or some Jedi) just said that Leia was already a Jedi for what she's gone through, but Leia didn't accept that and wanted to go through the trials, etc.

Mara is completely pure, yet so powerful that Vader regards her as a rival and fears her.
^I don't think Mara is pure in the slightest for she's done terrible things and I can't see how the Dark Lord of the Sith will fear her. He doesn't fear anyone.

I just don't think it is fair that Mara gets to be Luke's first love
^I've never seen where they downplay the others, they just say they weren't good enough for Luke and that Mara was. Mara was Luke's first love?...yeah right...he liked a lot of other people before her.

Han as a mushy, treacly-mouthed sap who pines over some dumb twit like Bria for 10 years
^I'm quoting my co-worker here, "sometimes guys do dumb things for girls".

Odd behavior for someone who's supposed to be devastated and torn apart by grief.
^Men don't like to show their grief for fear they appear weak. This is what I've heard before and I think it's true. Besides I'm sure you've heard that stupid expression where if you're a man you shouldn't cry. Give me a break--but maybe Han thought that too.

although Mara never even knew Jaina until Jaina was almost fully grown.
^Well Jaina was hidden throughout the galaxy in order to protect she and her siblings. The only one to see them was Winter and if you remember Jacen meets Ben when he's about 10 or something when all Jacen had to do was visit where Ben was.

Mara got killed, she was shown as looking like she was 25.
^I think that symbolized how Mara used to be, instead of making her look her age like Luke did. And Luke might've felt older when Mara died.

If you don't mind me saying you have a real grudge (or a problem is it?) with Mara's character. She's a book character Leiafan, that's all. You're taking this role with Mara way too seriously and should stop a bit. I admit I like a few characters and hate a few myself, but not to this point where you're finding every little thing wrong about a character and idolizing another.

If I offended you in any way above with my opinion, than I am sorry.



--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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Leiafan
post Apr 10 2009, 01:07 AM
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No, you didn't offend me. And yes, Mara is only a book character, thank goodness. Unfortunately, she has permeated every facet of the books. Even though she's dead, she continues to permeate the books...and Zahn is writing yet another novel-length fanfic about her, in which she has it both ways: being Palpatine's REAL Sith apprentice whom Vader fears and envies, but is pure as the new-fallen snow on the inside.

Leiafan--I don't think any of the characters are catching a break since the Battle of Endor. That being said....

^Good point. In fact, that's one of my biggest grievances with the EU...they just can't get a break. Not only that, but all the pain and suffering they went through is "all for naught." Plus, it wears you out. I like angst as much as the next person, but not nonstop angst with no relief or payoff.

I too don't like that part. I wish they made someone else go dark and do whatever, not Jacen. And if Luke was so gun-ho about saving his father, why wasn't he like that with his nephew? Vader did far worse than Jacen did.

^Yes, he did. While I can understand Luke being a tad more upset with Jacen than Vader because Jacen killed his wife, the whole storyline just felt like another attempt to substitute darkness and misery for depth.

Of course there would be, I don't really know why you couldn't think there wouldn't be. She used to be the Chief of State, did many heroic deeds, saved many people, is Luke's twin, Han's wife, Jaina's mother, everyone's friend. I think there would be a whole host of people out looking for her.
^I really doubt that, Rebel. When she was captured by the Vong and tortured, the rest of the characters barely noticed. Anakin didn't even care; Jacen used the moment to reflect on how "uncertain" and "weak" Leia was; and Jaina was too busy being a self-absorbed brat, smirking about her mother's ineptitude, while kissing up to Mara at the same time. Luke completely ignored Leia, and went back to his regularly scheduled schmooping with Mara.

Mara played her part and seemed to be sorry for what she's done in the past. Just the way her former life is brought up, she wants to hear none of it. Leia has achieved a lot in her past and present. I don't think she's downplayed at all, whenever something happens she's right there trying to fix the problem and using her statsis and whatever else to get things that Luke or any other NRI couldn't.
NRI=New Republic Intelligence (I tend to abbreviate a lot)

^No problem with the abbreviations. However, I see no evidence that she is at all sorry for what she's done in the past. She actually thinks that crashing her ship cleaned her slate. She'd "sacrificed" her beloved ship (and got a new one in six months), and in return, she got...."enough."

"Enough"? Try everything she could possibly want, and way more than other, far worthier people got. And no one holds anything against her. No one criticizes her, no one stands up to her, no one throws her misdeeds in her face, even when she is passing judgment on other people. "The Dark Side is the Dark Side...if you knew Anakin Skywalker later in life, you wouldn't be so quick to defend him," quoth Mara, as if her own past isn't more checkered than a bolt of gingham cloth. Luke hears this, and just stands there. Never mind that he was learning something new about his father, and Mara just had to jump in there and offer her unneeded, unwanted, and hypocritical two cents.

Mara loves to judge and condemn other people for their wrongs and mistakes, and never reflects that maybe people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. She bashed Leia's mothering (behind her back) despite not having any idea what she was talking about -- and even when she has a child and must send him away for his own safety, does she think, "Well, now that I know what it's like to be a mother and fight for the galaxy at the same time, maybe I was a tad too hard onLeia"? No. And Luke just nods along with everything she does/says, never standing up for Leia, never telling his wife to back off, no matter how rude, insensitive or nasty her behavior/attitude is. When Ben was briefly kidnapped, after which he was returned straight to his parents, totally unharmed, Mara snarled at Leia, and continued to fume about it for the rest of the book and most of the next one. Never mind that while her child was perfectly okay, Leia's youngest child was DEAD...GONE FOREVER.

Many readers complained about Mara's appalling behavior toward Leia (and in general) when Anakin died and Jacen went missing -- they complained directly to the publisher and on message boards. Did the authors take that golden opportunity to have Mara's character do some real growth, and perhaps get knocked down a few pegs (which was LONG overdue) and be forced to realize that she is not the center of the galaxy, and her behavior was uncalled for, and she could have stood to be a little more compassionate toward Leia? No. The authors let her off the hook with some foolishness where Luke "realizes she grieved as deeply as he did...she just hid it." Never mind that Mara was NOT the type to hide ANY of her emotions. Worse still, Luke continued to reward her for her self-absorption and insensitivity, by "enveloping her in his love," and kissing and cuddling with her at every opportunity.


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Leiafan
post Apr 10 2009, 03:13 AM
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I heard about that too, which it seems cool, but I wonder if he can do other books. He always seems to do just Thrawn and Mara; I'd like to see him do some future SW books.
^His attachment to Thrawn and Mara is a bit annoying. Lucas welcomed Zahn into his playground, not the other way around. But Zahn considers himself equal to Lucas -- even equating his Thrawn Trilogy to the OT. Zahn needs to remember that he is not the "god" of SW. He's not even the "god" of the EU. The EU existed long before he arrived on the scene.

I disagree. She's Palpatine's right hand person--what are they called--that's it Emperor's Hand. She's killing people for him and killing is the work of the dark side and Palpatine was a Sith. So she's doing the work of a Sith and is dark because she has the Force and chooses to use it in evil ways.
^Tell that to Zahn, because he has repeatedly insisted, both in interviews and in books he's written (using other characters as his mouthpieces) that Mara was never dark, that she was doing the work of a Jedi and most of the people she killed were evil in their own right so she was really doing the galaxy a favor. He also writes her as having it both ways: absolving her of all wrongdoing because she was "brainwashed" and thus "did not know that what she was doing was bad," but at the same time, trying to show how "good" she was inside by having her get upset when innocents are caught in the crossfire.

To her, it was a wonderful life and she loved her job very much. Luke took that from her, in her eyes, as she thought he had killed Palpatine and Palpatine did die as the DS2 blew up. It's like if someone here took over your job even though you're a better candidate for the position, wouldn't you have a grudge against them a bit? Any normal person would.
^Interesting...because we're also supposed to think that Mara "left" the Empire -- that's part of the "many Rebels were once part of the Empire, so don't criticize Mara" defense. The aforementioned Rebels left the Empire when doing so meant something. Mara didn't leave, she was kicked out...and she didn't return to the remnants of the Empire not because she recognized that the Empire was evil and bad, but because she wouldn't get her wonderful life back. And Luke has the nerve to tell her she was "selfless" in her service to the Emperor, even that she was "doing the work of a Jedi"? Give me a break! When the Rebels were living in barely habitable conditions, risking torture and death, to overthrow the Empire, Mara was getting her feet massaged at ritzy spas as a reward for slitting throats for the Emperor, who, meanwhile, was merrily blowing up entire planets.

Forgive me if I feel zero pity for Mara and think that she ought to count herself lucky that she isn't in prison, or dead, for her deeds, instead of threatening to kill Luke for taking her "wonderful life" from her.

She turned away from the dark, paid her dues, didn't like mentioning her past because of what she'd done. Luke did the same to Kyp Durron when he turned away and was sorry too.
^The Kyp defense doesn't wash with me, because I think Luke was wrong to make him a Jedi Master too. And Mara did not turn away from the Dark. She is only too willing to join the "Empire of the Hand," and Luke, amazingly, is willing to follow her. The only reason she doesn't rejoin the Empire is because it's not the "old Empire" that she herself says she "wants back." She paid little to no dues. She was rewarded for putting in minimal effort, "training herself," and is made a Jedi Master despite not qualifying in the slightest. She herself criticized Luke for making himself a Jedi Master "after only ten years," but has no problem being made a Jedi Master herself after ten minutes.

I don't think she was like that at all, maybe when she was younger and the Emperor's Hand, but not as a Jedi Master.
^I'm afraid she is. Freaking out at the thought of Ben being made slightly uncomfortable by Luke's grief over Anakin's death...bawling out Leia and feeling no shame for her insensitivity...continuing to fume about Ben's brief disappearance for a book and a half...rushing at the vines of a living planet to hack them with her lightsaber because said vines dared to wrap themselves around her ship (even Luke was taken aback by her actions)...always being quick to point out someone else's mistakes, but refusing to reflect on her own except to grant herself absolution (she crashed her ship, which makes it all better).


It wasn't Mara's fault. Jacen had been captured, probably died she thought as their twin bond wasn't there and Anakin had just died. I think anyone would be upset to the point of going where Jaina did. And while she was brought back, I don't think anyone would blame her either.

^I didn't say it was Mara's "fault." I merely pointed out that Jaina's flirtation with the Dark Side, along with her hateful behavior, was hardly surprising given that Mara was her "Master." Jaina idolized Mara while almost literally spitting on her own mother. Jaina started to become an insufferable brat the moment she hooked up with Mara, and Leia was "on the outside looking in."

Have you've ever seen a teenager or someone in their twenties that acted like a teenager that needed a good slapping? I have and I've heard about it too from other parents, Jaina was acting out like anyone does--should Mara have stopped that? Maybe, b/c she's her aunt, but it's not always her place. Leia is the one who should've told her daughter to stop or Han, they're her parents.
^Yes, Mara should have stopped it, or at least made an effort. We're supposed to think she was Jaina's "surrogate mother," after all...and since she was the brat's Master, she should have reeled her in, or at least, cared enough to try and intercede. She did not.

And Jaina's parents aren't blameless either. Leia should have slapped that brat across her pouty little face, as hard as she could, the moment the brat mouthed off to her. Leia, Han, and Jaina's "surrogate mother," Mara, should ALL have smacked the brat down. Instead, Mara just stared off into space, Leia allowed the brat to bully her, and Han -- though he does have a moment where he yells at the brat for her treatment of her mother at Anakin's makeshift memorial service -- should have taken her over his knee and smacked her soundly on her petulant, spoiled, ungrateful behind.

Was Jaina's snotty 'tude "realistic"? I suppose so, but that doesn't wash with me. The "realism" was not only lopsided, it was a tad incomplete. See, it would also be "realistic" for Jaina's parents, and her idol/goddess Mara, to refuse to put up with her behavior. And since Jaina hated and disrespected her mother, a smackdown from Mara, preceded or followed by a smackdown from Han, would have been the most effective.

Han still has that tough boy/man thing going on in the books and may find that silly to say to Leia. "Hey I love you", he says it in different ways by giving her, her own co-pilot chair or telling her she looks lovely or in other ways and Leia knows this.

^So it would do no harm whatsoever to have him think it. He doesn't have to tell her, although that would be nice too.


Maybe you skip those parts cause I always see Leia held in high regard everywhere she goes and everyone she meets they're "wow it's Leia Solo" or "whoa, it's Leia-Luke's brother, former Chief of State"....and on and on go the wow's in the universe about her. I think you're either missing them seriously cause it happens in the books a lot.

^Good to know. smile.gif



Mara went through the trials in her own way during, I think it was Vision of the Future. Just like Kyp destroyed the Sun Crusher and we knew he'd be alright from now on, so was Mara when she destroyed her ship. In a way that was her last trial to become a Jedi or Jedi Master. And besides Leia wanted to go through it all she told Saba; she wanted to earn it like all the other Jedi had (yes even Mara).

^Mara hasn't earned it at all. Nor did Kyp. And Mara crashed her ship... well, forgive me if I'm not impressed. So she had to go without an "kewl" ship named after herself for, what, six months, before having said ship replaced by an even "kewler" one, also named after herself. That was not even close to being a trial.

Very true, but again Leia said she didn't want her statsis as a diplomat or anything else come in the way, she wanted to go through all that. If I remember right, I think Han (or some Jedi) just said that Leia was already a Jedi for what she's gone through, but Leia didn't accept that and wanted to go through the trials, etc.

^That's good, but if she had to go through trials, so should Mara and Kyp. They did not.

I don't think Mara is pure in the slightest for she's done terrible things and I can't see how the Dark Lord of the Sith will fear her. He doesn't fear anyone.

^Tell that to Zahn. He's the one who wrote Vader as fearful and jealous of Mara in "Allegiance," and he's also the one who absolves Mara of all wrongdoing, in his books and in his interviews.

I've never seen where they downplay the others, they just say they weren't good enough for Luke and that Mara was. Mara was Luke's first love?...yeah right...he liked a lot of other people before her.
^I agree. But the authors have gone out of their ways to erase Luke's past love life and make it seem like Mara is the first and only woman he ever loved. There have even been attempts to make it seem like he was a virgin before he married Mara, and so was she...which is patently ridiculous.

I'm quoting my co-worker here, "sometimes guys do dumb things for girls".
^But didn't you say earlier that Han is a tough guy and would find that behavior silly?

Men don't like to show their grief for fear they appear weak. This is what I've heard before and I think it's true. Besides I'm sure you've heard that stupid expression where if you're a man you shouldn't cry. Give me a break--but maybe Han thought that too.

^No offense, but I really hope you're not serious. Do you honestly think that Han was grieving deeply in ANH, just "hiding" it? That his carefree, wisecracking, cheerful demeanor hid a man who was weeping inside over his "lost love"? And for a man who is so deep in mourning, he certainly feels free to put his hands all over a "wench" in the cantina. He also feels free to keep at least one hand on Leia's rump in the garbage compactor, and to wink at her during the medal ceremony.

Well Jaina was hidden throughout the galaxy in order to protect she and her siblings. The only one to see them was Winter and if you remember Jacen meets Ben when he's about 10 or something when all Jacen had to do was visit where Ben was.

^That's all true. But I don't see why it explains how Mara became Jaina's "surrogate mother" despite the fact that she didn't even know her until she was almost grown.

I think that symbolized how Mara used to be, instead of making her look her age like Luke did. And Luke might've felt older when Mara died.

^Feeling older and looking older are two different things. And Mara looks 25 on every single book cover, while other characters' wrinkles, gray hair, etc. are displayed.

If you don't mind me saying you have a real grudge (or a problem is it?) with Mara's character. She's a book character Leiafan, that's all. You're taking this role with Mara way too seriously and should stop a bit. I admit I like a few characters and hate a few myself, but not to this point where you're finding every little thing wrong about a character and idolizing another.
^I don't idolize any of the characters.

Yes, I do have a problem with Mara, or a grudge against her, if you prefer. I didn't always. I used to like her. IMO the trouble started when she joined the major cast, without any corresponding development of her character. The authors had many opportunities to have Mara grow as a character, but took none of them. The readers were told over and over how wonderful Mara was, either directly or through another character's awestruck impressions of her, but never saw what it was that made her so wonderful.


--------------------
Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 10 2009, 04:14 AM
Post #6


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I'm glad I didn't offend you. smilesmall.gif

Even though she's dead, she continues to permeate the books.
^I don't think so. They just mention her as Luke's wife and Ben's mother. That's it.

and Zahn is writing yet another novel-length fanfic about her
^Yes I agree with you there. It seems that's all he writes about; he should try some other character in the SW universe.

I like angst as much as the next person
^I think the battles are fun, but they do need a break. It'd be neat to see a book about them just doing whatever, but it would have to be a good book. I didn't like M. Falcon too much, it bored me. Did you like it?

When she was captured by the Vong and tortured, the rest of the characters barely noticed.
^....Oh I remember that now, it's when Jacen used his power again on the Vong. I'll have to reread it sometime, but I'm sure they all worried about Leia.

She actually thinks that crashing her ship cleaned her slate.
^Well we can do the same to Kyp then as all he did was destroy the Sun Crusher and then was welcomed back. I find that in the real world, and in fantasy, when people do something they don't like they really don't want to reflect on it too much and I think this is what Mara is doing.

"The Dark Side is the Dark Side...if you knew Anakin Skywalker later in life, you wouldn't be so quick to defend him," quoth Mara
^At the time maybe Luke didn't want to say anything because that is his wife now. That's starting another argument. The past is the past no matter how much it may hurt and some just want to forget and move on.

She bashed Leia's mothering
^When was that? I don't seem to recall that at all!

Mara snarled at Leia
^Well any mother would be mad when you've entrusted your son's life to someone and then they end up losing that child and that child being kidnapped. Also Leia was fuming at Tephen (sp) when the Empire found out about her children. I know that's a slight difference, but when children are involved, mothers can get easily upset. I can see Leia being mad at Mara if it was reversed.

he's written (using other characters as his mouthpieces) that Mara was never dark
^He actually says that and believes that? I can't see how Mara would come off not dark by killing people. That's what Sith do.

And Luke has the nerve to tell her she was "selfless" in her service to the Emperor, even that she was "doing the work of a Jedi"?
^Luke told her this? Maybe at the time he was trying to make her feel better about herself cause clearly Mara's no saint. Granted she gave that life up, some way, but she's not a saint, no Sith is (or Sith worker) is. They're far from it.

Forgive me if I feel zero pity for Mara
^Don't worry about it; we all feel differently about characters. When some died I actually cried, yep cried. But when we hate too much I think we fail to see when pointers are being handed out, if they're good. I should know as I've been working to get rid of a grudge I have on some of my aunts/uncles.

but has no problem being made a Jedi Master herself after ten minutes.
^It doesn't take ten minutes to become a Jedi Master, it takes a long time! And if the Empire did come back, I mean now (married to Luke and all) I can't see her turning her back on her family and saying "adios amego".

We're supposed to think she was Jaina's "surrogate mother," after all.
^I never thought for once that Mara would be Jaina's "surrogate mother", she was just an Aunt. She was closer to her than other aunts are perhaps, but that's it. And sometimes it's not always a good idea to intervene even though maybe the aunt/uncle wants to.

Leia should have slapped that brat across her pouty little face, as hard as she could
^Oh my gosh, yes! Jaina acted horrible towards her mother; Leia is a quick forgiver I'll say that. I don't think Mara would've been that easy to forgive, not many would. I can't even see Han forgiving her straight away.

See, it would also be "realistic" for Jaina's parents, and her idol/goddess Mara, to refuse to put up with her behavior.
^I agree with you there; her behavior should've been dealt with. Who cares how old she is, when she's being disrespectful you need to put that person in their place.

So it would do no harm whatsoever to have him think it.
^Well you do see him think it because he often looks at her and thinks she's beautiful and can't believe she's his, and so forth.

also named after herself.
^A lot of smugglers or people who own their ships named their ships after themselves, it's not just Mara. Look at Talon Karrde.

so should Mara and Kyp. They did not.
^Maybe they went through them some other way. Not all of it has to be the same for each person. I get that one trial has to sacrifice something either you love or whatever to fully accept being a Knight.

and he's also the one who absolves Mara of all wrongdoing, in his books and in his interviews.
^I'll admit Mara is a cool character and I was sad to see her go, but she's gone. Zahn should really stop writing about her and focus on other characters. Some writers take it too far with their favorites.

There have even been attempts to make it seem like he was a virgin before he married Mara
^In one book they did mention Callista and I don't think Luke slept around. Jacen and Tenel Ka did before they were married, but I never got the notion that Luke did.

But didn't you say earlier that Han is a tough guy and would find that behavior silly?
^Sometimes it can go both ways. Some guys do dumb things for a girl and others don't want to convey their feelings towards them. Just like there are two different kinds of girls in the world too.

He also feels free to keep at least one hand on Leia's rump in the garbage compactor, and to wink at her during the medal ceremony.
^Well since you put it that way....maybe Han's the type to get over people quickly. *shrugs*

But I don't see why it explains how Mara became Jaina's "surrogate mother"
^Like said above I just see Mara being her aunt.

Well it's 11pm and I have to get to bed soon. Nice talking to you.






--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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Leiafan
post Apr 10 2009, 08:24 AM
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I'm glad I didn't offend you. smilesmall.gif
Likewise. smile.gif

I don't think so. They just mention her as Luke's wife and Ben's mother. That's it.
^And like her death is the worst tragedy the GFFA has ever faced.

Yes I agree with you there. It seems that's all he writes about; he should try some other character in the SW universe.
^It's natural for an author to like his or her own original characters, but when you're writing for series, it is more than a little arrogant to keep focusing on them, and occasionally putting in other characters as the "supporting cast." Zahn's written original novels -- that is the place for going on and on about your own OCs.

I think the battles are fun, but they do need a break. It'd be neat to see a book about them just doing whatever, but it would have to be a good book. I didn't like M. Falcon too much, it bored me. Did you like it?
^I liked the Han/Leia interaction.

....Oh I remember that now, it's when Jacen used his power again on the Vong. I'll have to reread it sometime, but I'm sure they all worried about Leia.
^Yeah, for about a minute. Then they forget about her. Kathy Tyers, who by the way begged Del Rey to let her torture Leia nearly to death (and reportedly was disappointed that Leia got to keep her legs and didn't have to have them amputated -- I know she hates Leia and adores Mara, but good grief, she didn't need to be so blatant about it), could have included a scene where Luke comforts his tortured sister via the Force, or Han goes back to check on his wife, but instead, she puts in yet ANOTHER scene where Luke and Mara schmoop. As if "Balance Point" wasn't already one long Luke/Mara romance fanfic.

Well we can do the same to Kyp then as all he did was destroy the Sun Crusher and then was welcomed back. I find that in the real world, and in fantasy, when people do something they don't like they really don't want to reflect on it too much and I think this is what Mara is doing.
^\Again, the Kyp defense won't wash with me. He didn't deserve to be made a Jedi Master either. And as for Mara not wanting to reflect too much on her past...well, that's easy for her to do/say. Not so much for her victims, and the people whose lives she ruined. Maybe she ought to think about that instead of thinking, "My past is too painful for ME, so I won't think of it." Besides which, she doesn't mind pointing out other people's wrongs. In fact, she's usually the first to point them out. Once, just ONCE, I'd have liked to see someone cut off one of her self-righteous tirades by saying, "Look who's talking!"

At the time maybe Luke didn't want to say anything because that is his wife now. That's starting another argument. The past is the past no matter how much it may hurt and some just want to forget and move on.
^Which again is very easy for Mara to do...not so for the people she killed and the people whose lives she ruined so she could live her "wonderful life" as the Emperor's throat-slitter. And just because Mara is Luke's wife, it doesn't mean he can't tell her to back off, and maybe say she should think before she speaks. Luke is Mara's husband, but she doesn't hesitate to point out his goof-ups. So why should he walk on tiptoes around her?

When was that? I don't seem to recall that at all!
^I think it was in the book before "Rebirth." Mara felt free to judge and condemn Leia's mothering, and Luke nodded along with her.

Well any mother would be mad when you've entrusted your son's life to someone and then they end up losing that child and that child being kidnapped. Also Leia was fuming at Tephen (sp) when the Empire found out about her children. I know that's a slight difference, but when children are involved, mothers can get easily upset. I can see Leia being mad at Mara if it was reversed.
^Leia got worried when Mara sent Jaina off on a dangerous mission without maintaining contact with her. Luke hurriedly jumped in and stood up for Mara, not Leia, and Mara laughed at Leia's worry. Leia made some remark about how Mara was enjoying this, and Mara snickered and said, "Yes!"

Ben's kidnapping was not Leia's fault. It could have happened if Mara herself was watching him. And he was returned to her totally unharmed. While I can understand Mara being upset, one would think that Mara could perhaps weigh that against the fact that Leia's youngest child was DEAD, GONE FOREVER, and maybe, I don't know, backed off a little, instead of bawling her out, and continuing to fume for a whole additional book. Certainly Luke could have told Mara to cool it, instead of sitting there in awe of her anger. It infuriates me that Mara can speak so nastily to, and of, his blood relatives, living or dead, and he doesn't even blink.

He actually says that and believes that? I can't see how Mara would come off not dark by killing people. That's what Sith do.
^Mara wasn't a Sith. But she was a professional assassin, with Force sensitivity, who worked for a Sith. So to say she was "never dark" is absolute nonsense.

Luke told her this? Maybe at the time he was trying to make her feel better about herself cause clearly Mara's no saint. Granted she gave that life up, some way, but she's not a saint, no Sith is (or Sith worker) is. They're far from it.
^Yes, Luke told her that. And he had no business doing it. She shouldn't feel better about herself. She should feel shame and regret. He had no right to minimize her actions, especially since he was defiling everything the Jedi stood for by equating her service to the Emperor to being a Jedi. He knew perfectly well that her service to the Emperor was not "selfless" -- and even if it had been, that is hardly something praiseworthy.

Don't worry about it; we all feel differently about characters. When some died I actually cried, yep cried. But when we hate too much I think we fail to see when pointers are being handed out, if they're good. I should know as I've been working to get rid of a grudge I have on some of my aunts/uncles.
^Yeah, well, in real life it's a bit more complicated. Going back to the "realism" issue -- I don't usually read fiction for "realism." Some people say that seeing the bad guys "get theirs" and so forth in fiction is not realistic. Maybe not, but if I want realism, and to see bad people get away with their rotten deeds, I'll watch the news. When reading a book, particularly a "genre" book, I like seeing the bad guys "get theirs," and seeing characters who deserve to be taken down a few notches actually get taken down those notches.

It doesn't take ten minutes to become a Jedi Master, it takes a long time! And if the Empire did come back, I mean now (married to Luke and all) I can't see her turning her back on her family and saying "adios amego".
^Maybe, maybe not. And no, it doesn't take ten minutes to become a Jedi Master, but that's what happened with Mara, and Kyp. It's just one of the many reasons why neither of them should be Jedi Masters.

I never thought for once that Mara would be Jaina's "surrogate mother", she was just an Aunt. She was closer to her than other aunts are perhaps, but that's it. And sometimes it's not always a good idea to intervene even though maybe the aunt/uncle wants to.
^It wasn't a matter of Mara wanting to but not thinking she should. She didn't even get that far. She didn't care. And no, Mara was NOT Jaina's surrogate mother, or any kind of mother to her at all, which is why it offended me to see the Essential Guide to Characters say she was.

Oh my gosh, yes! Jaina acted horrible towards her mother; Leia is a quick forgiver I'll say that. I don't think Mara would've been that easy to forgive, not many would. I can't even see Han forgiving her straight away.
^I guess the authors wanted us to think that Han and Leia felt they had both made too many mistakes to be in a position to criticize Jaina. I think that's ridiculous. Yes, they both may have made many mistakes -- but that does not mean they have no right to give Jaina a verbal if not a physical smackdown.

I agree with you there; her behavior should've been dealt with. Who cares how old she is, when she's being disrespectful you need to put that person in their place.
^Yep. Jaina should have been put in her place, Mara should have been put in her place, and Luke needed to reclaim his brain and spine.

Well you do see him think it because he often looks at her and thinks she's beautiful and can't believe she's his, and so forth.
^Which is all very good, but it wouldn't be that hard for him to go one step further and think about how she's the only woman he's ever loved.

A lot of smugglers or people who own their ships named their ships after themselves, it's not just Mara. Look at Talon Karrde.
^I don't see what that has to do with anything. The point was not that Mara named all her ships after herself. The point was that Mara crashing her ship was in no way a "trial," nor did it wipe her slate clean, but we're supposed to think it was and it did. Mara having to go without personal transportation -- a ship named after herself -- for a short while, before getting another ship, also named after herself, is not a trial or a sacrifice, and it doesn't even come close to making up for her past, nor qualify her for Jedihood. It certainly didn't qualify her for Jedi Masterhood.

Maybe they went through them some other way. Not all of it has to be the same for each person. I get that one trial has to sacrifice something either you love or whatever to fully accept being a Knight.
^Neither Mara nor Kyp sacrificed anything.

In one book they did mention Callista and I don't think Luke slept around. Jacen and Tenel Ka did before they were married, but I never got the notion that Luke did.
^No, I don't think Luke "slept around" either. I think he slept with Callista, who he loved and wanted to marry, and it's strongly hinted that he slept with Akanah. I didn't much care for either Callista or Akanah, but that's beside the point. Luke was no virgin when he married Mara, and I seriously doubt she was a virgin either.

I've been informed by Mara fans that she was always "set aside" to become Luke's wife, that all the authors had an "unspoken agreement" that Luke would eventually marry her. That is not so. One has to look no further than Mara's own creator to see that. Zahn said in an interview that when he was asked to write the final couple of novels in the Bantam series before Del Rey took over the license, he agreed, but on two conditions. The first condition was that he could end the Empire once and for all...and the second condition was that Mara get together with Luke. He said, and I quote, that he encountered a lot of resistance from LFL Literature on that second point, but they eventually, reluctantly, agreed.

Also, Barbara Hambly's specific assignment when she wrote her first book was to create "the love of Luke's life." Whether or not you like Callista doesn't matter -- that was her assignment. So Mara was NOT set aside as Luke's wife, nor was there an agreement among the authors that Luke was going to marry Mara. As late as the mid-1990s, LFL Literature had other plans for Luke.

Sometimes it can go both ways. Some guys do dumb things for a girl and others don't want to convey their feelings towards them. Just like there are two different kinds of girls in the world too.
^If Han can be a treacle-mouthed sap about a weak-willed twit like Bria -- which is totally out of character for him -- then he surely can think some fairly non-treacly, non-sappy thoughts aboiut Leia, who is anything but a weak-willed twit, being the only woman he's ever loved or his first love.

Well since you put it that way....maybe Han's the type to get over people quickly. *shrugs*
^Again, no offense, but I really hope you don't seriously believe Han was grieving deeply in ANH and was "covering it up." Because that is just too ridiculous for words, particularly when you stand back and remember that ANH as a movie was scripted and filmed 20 years before Bria was even created. I doubt either George Lucas or Harrison Ford know who Bria is nowadays, and it is flat-out impossible for them to have known who she was in 1976. It's akin to people claiming that Palpatine yells, "MAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAA!" when he's tumbling down the reactor shaft in ROTJ...never mind that ROTJ was scripted and filmed some eight years before Mara was invented.

Like said above I just see Mara being her aunt.
^By marriage. That was why I was so offended to see her described as Jaina's "surrogate mother" in the Essential Guide to Characters.

Well it's 11pm and I have to get to bed soon. Nice talking to you.
^You too.


--------------------
Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 13 2009, 07:49 PM
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And like her death is the worst tragedy the GFFA has ever faced.
^I never got that from the books, only the way Luke acted. But how would one act if they just lost the love of their life? That's a rhetorical question.

that is the place for going on and on about your own OCs.
^What does OC stand for?

Again, the Kyp defense won't wash with me.
^He's the only one I can come up with that had as many deaths on his hands that Mara did. That's why I keep bringing him up, but I'm sure any other Sith has the blood of millions on their hands too. Look at Vader.

Maybe she ought to think about that instead of thinking, "My past is too painful for ME, so I won't think of it."
^I meant in a sense where no one would ask about her life, but she would. She would destroy the bad guys to sort of make up for what she's been doing in her past life. Hope I'm making sense.

it doesn't mean he can't tell her to back off, and maybe say she should think before she speaks.
^Agreed, it seems though that Mara is the more dominant of the family. She doesn't mind criticizing Luke, but Luke doesn't want to shove it back in her face cause that's not his way. Maybe if she was still alive, he would've snapped eventually and told his wife to stop.

Certainly Luke could have told Mara to cool it, instead of sitting there in awe of her anger.
^Perhaps Luke is afraid to get in front of her wrath and thought it'd be better if she had it out and then apologize later. Although I don't remember if she does or not, or there's just a mutual understanding between the two mothers that there is an apology somewhere.

So to say she was "never dark" is absolute nonsense.
^Okay fine she wasn't a Sith, but then she was a Dark Jedi. They will do their master's bidding and use the dark side. So maybe the authors think she didn't, but the audience (readers) know better.

When reading a book, particularly a "genre" book, I like seeing the bad guys "get theirs,"
^So do I. I was just talking to a friend of mine and said if the bad guy doesn't die it takes away the whole book, meaning no one is going to like it. You want to see the bad guy destroyed either by his/her own techniques or in another way.

which is why it offended me to see the Essential Guide to Characters say she was.
^I didn't read that, I just get the encyclopedia; I'll have to see if it says that in there. I'll look for it. But yes that was wrong to say.

is not a trial or a sacrifice
^Actually destroying something you love or giving up something you love for something else is a sacrifice. Not sure how big of one it can be, but for the greater good and you gave up something says a bit.

Luke was no virgin when he married Mara, and I seriously doubt she was a virgin either.
^Well since there were no scenes of talking of "doing this" I like to think that they were pure before getting married. Maybe it's because I believe this.

If Han can be a treacle-mouthed sap about a weak-willed twit like Bria -- which is totally out of character for him
^I really can't comment on that since I've never read about he and Bria together, but I'll take your word for it.

I doubt either George Lucas or Harrison Ford know who Bria is nowadays
^I doubt both of them read the books. I remember hearing GL saying somewhere that he doesn't read the books at all.

It's akin to people claiming that Palpatine yells, "MAAAAARAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"
^Yeah right, do people really think that? I can't see Palpatine yelling for anyone; he doesn't have a kind bone in his body.

Hope you had a nice Easter. smilesmall.gif





--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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Leiafan
post Apr 14 2009, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE (Rebel_A96 @ Apr 13 2009, 08:49 PM) *
I never got that from the books, only the way Luke acted. But how would one act if they just lost the love of their life? That's a rhetorical question.

^Interesting, because Mara jumped all over Luke for feeling grief when his nephew Anakin died. And when the tortured, bleeding Leia was brought above the Millennium Falcon, near death, Han didn't even notice, much less care.

It just strikes me as odd that Mara's death inspires incapacitating grief, but no one really cared when Leia was tortured nearly to death -- and when Anakin died, Mara ordered Luke to stop grieving, and got in Leia's face and bawled her out, insensitive to HER grief. Mara felt no grief or loss herself, even though Anakin worshipped the ground she walked on. When Mara was in labor, Anakin fell to his knees when he felt her pain. When Leia was tortured and experienced a pain ten times worse than childbirth, Anakin didn't even notice.

What does OC stand for?
^Original character.

He's the only one I can come up with that had as many deaths on his hands that Mara did. That's why I keep bringing him up, but I'm sure any other Sith has the blood of millions on their hands too. Look at Vader.
^Yes, there were characters who did worse than Mara. Such as Mara's "beloved" master, Palpatine, who she openly gushed over in the presence of people whose families, lives, and planets he destroyed. And yes, Kyp has as much blood on his hands as Mara. That's part of why he doesn't deserve to be a Jedi Master any more than she does. Just because there are characters who did worse than Mara, doesn't mean she deserves to be a Jedi Master, nor does it lessen or erase her own crimes and misdeeds.

I meant in a sense where no one would ask about her life, but she would. She would destroy the bad guys to sort of make up for what she's been doing in her past life. Hope I'm making sense.
^Yes, you're making sense, but Mara does not feel like she needs to "make up" for anything. She thinks that by crashing her ship, she wiped her slate clean. She is not in the least regretful or ashamed of her past, and feels free to pass judgement on others for their errors, but her own errors, past and present, must be overlooked and ignored.

Agreed, it seems though that Mara is the more dominant of the family. She doesn't mind criticizing Luke, but Luke doesn't want to shove it back in her face cause that's not his way. Maybe if she was still alive, he would've snapped eventually and told his wife to stop.
^It's sad that marrying Mara has so divested Luke of his considerable spine (after all, he faced down the Emperor and saved his father's soul) that he cannot stand up to her when she's throwing one of her self-centered tantrums. Luke is a nice guy, but he has never been a doormat. So I don't find it terribly realistic that he would not get fed up with Mara's insensitivity and inability to think before she speaks, and perhaps tell her to rein it in.

Perhaps Luke is afraid to get in front of her wrath and thought it'd be better if she had it out and then apologize later. Although I don't remember if she does or not, or there's just a mutual understanding between the two mothers that there is an apology somewhere.
^Except there IS no apology, anywhere. Leia was the one who apologized to Mara, when Mara was the one who acted like a horse's derriere. And if Luke is so afraid of Mara's wrath, that's yet one more reason why he had no business making her a Jedi Master.

Okay fine she wasn't a Sith, but then she was a Dark Jedi. They will do their master's bidding and use the dark side. So maybe the authors think she didn't, but the audience (readers) know better.
^She wasn't a Dark Jedi either. She was an assassin with some Force sensitivity who worked for a Sith. She slit throats for the Emperor, using her Force sensitivity to communicate with him and to enhance her killing abilities. So there's no way she was "never dark."

So do I. I was just talking to a friend of mine and said if the bad guy doesn't die it takes away the whole book, meaning no one is going to like it. You want to see the bad guy destroyed either by his/her own techniques or in another way.
^Which is why I'm tired of the bad guys getting away with everything in the EU, and the good guys being made to suffer. I am also tired of the attempts to make the Empire "not so bad," so as to absolve and whitewash characters like Thrawn and Mara.

I didn't read that, I just get the encyclopedia; I'll have to see if it says that in there. I'll look for it. But yes that was wrong to say.
^Glad that you agree. smile.gif

Actually destroying something you love or giving up something you love for something else is a sacrifice. Not sure how big of one it can be, but for the greater good and you gave up something says a bit.
^It may say a bit, but that bit is very small, and certainly not enough to qualify her for Jedihood, or even qualify as a real sacrifice. She crashed her ship, which was replaced in six months. As for her "loving" the ship -- that's interesting, because she grieved deeply over the loss of her ship, but didn't grieve at all over the loss of Anakin, her nephew by marriage who worshipped her, and who we're supposed to think was closer to her than to his own mother.

Well since there were no scenes of talking of "doing this" I like to think that they were pure before getting married. Maybe it's because I believe this.
^It's strongly hinted that Luke had an intimate relationship with Callista and one with Akanah. Luke was almost 40 when he married Mara...I very much doubt he would be a virgin. Nor would Mara. And if she's supposed to be the "love of his life" (something I question), and they are supposed to be the Greatest Couple the Galaxy Has Ever Seen, as the authors have repeatedly stated (usually in tandem with some degradation of Han/Leia, since they don't have a -- flourish of trumpets, please! -- FORCE BOND!!!), why does it matter if they were or weren't virgins? The NJO provided one valentine after another to Luke/Mara, giving them all the love scenes and most of the personal scenes. "Balance Point" was one long Luke/Mara romance fanfic, with occasional breaks to insult, degrade, and literally torture Leia.

Some Luke/Mara fans claimed they had gotten "shafted" by "Tatooine Ghost." Excuse me? "Tatooine Ghost" was a stand-alone book, which didn't have any major effect on the ongoing storyline. The Luke/Mara fans could easily pass over it if they wanted to. More than that, Han/Leia fans had been begging for three or more years to get even half the treatment for their couple that Luke/Mara had been getting throughout the NJO.

Han/Leia fans were rightfully angry that, after being promised by the publisher that "Balance Point" would have some good Han/Leia scenes, they read it only to see all the scenes go to Luke/Mara instead, and Kathy Tyers bragged about how she COULD have written more Han/Leia scenes, but wanted to focus on Luke/Mara.

Han/Leia fans were already upset over the badly handled separation, but "Balance Point" was the last straw. Del Rey offered a weak stop-gap measure in the form of an e-book that purported to "explore" Han/Leia's reunion, but in fact, they were tense and arguing throughout most of it, and the only romantic part was when Han and Leia attempted to kiss, only to be interrupted by C3PO. The publishers claimed that was meant to echo their first kiss in ESB...never mind that when C3PO interrupted them in ESB, they had actually succeeded in kissing. In the e-book, C3PO interrupted them before they succeeded. It just seemed like a cruel tease, especially since in the regular NJO series, Luke and Mara were still getting it on every twenty pages while Han and Leia got zilch.

The publishers justified the attention paid to Luke/Mara's love life in the NJO by saying, "They have been through a lot, and deserve some happiness." Uh....Han and Leia have been through the death of Chewie, Han's drinking, a separation, Leia's torture, the collapse of the government Leia helped build, and the death of a child -- now two children. I am almost afraid to ask what, exactly, Han and Leia are going to have to go through before the publishers think they "deserve a little happiness."

I doubt both of them read the books. I remember hearing GL saying somewhere that he doesn't read the books at all.
^He doesn't. Some people insist that every plotline and book was approved by him. That is not the case. He gives rubber-stamp approval to general storylines, but, with some exceptions, he doesn't get directly involved with the EU at all.

Yeah right, do people really think that? I can't see Palpatine yelling for anyone; he doesn't have a kind bone in his body.
^Mara sure seemed to think he was wonderful; she loved and respected him.

I hope you had a happy Easter too.


--------------------
Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 15 2009, 12:05 AM
Post #10


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I'm definitely going to have to reread the NJO again to see how they treated Leia cause I don't remember this at all, nor do I think they would do this. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would just like to see if I get your perspective out of rereading them.

Original character.
^Oh, thanks.

nor does it lessen or erase her own crimes and misdeeds.
^Nothing can erase what they did as I'm sure every time it's brought up they know about it. I remember some character bringing up Kyp's past and from the way he acted (sorry forget which book) you could tell he remembered and hated himself for it. I'm sure others would do the same.

She is not in the least regretful or ashamed of her past
^I wonder if she's the type of character that is ashamed of her past, but doesn't like to show her emotions to others. Strange I know, but there have to be some real life people that are like that, I'm sure.

So I don't find it terribly realistic that he would not get fed up with Mara's insensitivity and inability to think before she speaks
^In the movies Luke was strong, but in some of the books the authors make him weak which I don't like.

Except there IS no apology
^Sometimes an apology isn't verbal. My mother forgave her sister and I never heard my aunt say "sorry", but my mother says she does apologize in other ways. Maybe Mara does too--who knows.

So there's no way she was "never dark."
^I'm sorry I don't get it. She had some Force powers and had to use a bit on them when destroying those Palpatine told her to do, so how is it that she isn't a Dark Jedi? Did she not use her powers on the people she killed? Cause then I can see how she isn't (sort of).

It's strongly hinted that Luke had an intimate relationship with Callista and one with Akanah.
^Can't an intimate relationship just be all kissing, hugging, etc without the sex involved?

why does it matter if they were or weren't virgins?
^Because I believe that you should only have sex when you're married. It's wrong to do it before.

I am almost afraid to ask what, exactly, Han and Leia are going to have to go through before the publishers think they "deserve a little happiness."
^I do agree with you where the authors do mishandle a lot of characters or forget about some, don't elaborate on others, etc. And I know some authors have it where this or that character is their favorite, but try to write the others in a little bit more or have more scenes. It's annoying to see some characters in some books, but not in others or what you're talking about with Han/Leia.

Some people insist that every plotline and book was approved by him.
^At first I thought they were supposed to till I learned they didn't have to, but did have to go through some people from Lucasfilm or whatever it is they go through. I do know that, darn name argh!, had to go to Lucas to ask if he could kill of Chewie.
----------------------

So on a happy note, how did you Easter go? Ours was fine, see you later. smilesmall.gif




--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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Leiafan
post Apr 15 2009, 04:27 AM
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I'm definitely going to have to reread the NJO again to see how they treated Leia cause I don't remember this at all, nor do I think they would do this. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would just like to see if I get your perspective out of rereading them.
^OK.

Oh, thanks.
^No problem.

Nothing can erase what they did as I'm sure every time it's brought up they know about it. I remember some character bringing up Kyp's past and from the way he acted (sorry forget which book) you could tell he remembered and hated himself for it. I'm sure others would do the same.
^He should feel regret. So should Mara. Kyp does, she doesn't. But even feeling regret doesn't make either of them worthy of Jedi Masterhood.

I wonder if she's the type of character that is ashamed of her past, but doesn't like to show her emotions to others. Strange I know, but there have to be some real life people that are like that, I'm sure.
^She is not one of them. She has never hidden her feelings. When she gets angry, she shows it. When she's in pain, she broadcasts it all over the galaxy. She shows no regret because she feels none...yet she feels perfectly free to blast everyone else for their wrong, even if she did the same, or worse.

In the movies Luke was strong, but in some of the books the authors make him weak which I don't like.
^I don't like it either, and it's gotten worse since he married Mara.

Sometimes an apology isn't verbal. My mother forgave her sister and I never heard my aunt say "sorry", but my mother says she does apologize in other ways. Maybe Mara does too--who knows.
^Certainly the readers of these books don't know, because there is no hint of an apology, verbal or non-verbal, from Mara. Not ever. Nor did Mara treat Leia with any discernible care or respect....on the contrary, she continues to treat Leia like something on the bottom of her high-heeled boot. And she continues to be so self-centered that, when Luke is once again rewarding her for her appalling behavior while they're on a mission with Jacen (and Mara nearly got them all killed by rushing to hack at the vines of a living planet when they dared wrap themselves around her ship) by schmooping with her in the cockpit of the ship, and Jacen leaves...Mara says that Jacen left because he's "jealous of what she and Luke have." Yep, because the entire galaxy revolves around HER, and everyone is always thinking about HER all day long.

Myself, I consider it more likely that Jacen left because he was grossed out by his middle-aged uncle and aunt making out.

I'm sorry I don't get it. She had some Force powers and had to use a bit on them when destroying those Palpatine told her to do, so how is it that she isn't a Dark Jedi? Did she not use her powers on the people she killed? Cause then I can see how she isn't (sort of).
^You can have Force sensitivity and use the Force without being a Jedi, Dark or otherwise. Mara was not a Sith or a Dark Jedi. She was merely a Force-sensitive who used what limited powers she had to aid her in killing who she was assigned to kill, and to communicate with Palpatine.

Can't an intimate relationship just be all kissing, hugging, etc without the sex involved?
^Yes, but that wasn't the case with Luke and Callista.

Because I believe that you should only have sex when you're married. It's wrong to do it before.
^That's a very admirable stance to take, but I'm afraid the EU authors don't take it with regards to the characters.

I do agree with you where the authors do mishandle a lot of characters or forget about some, don't elaborate on others, etc. And I know some authors have it where this or that character is their favorite, but try to write the others in a little bit more or have more scenes. It's annoying to see some characters in some books, but not in others or what you're talking about with Han/Leia.
^There's nothing wrong with the authors having favorites. However, they should realize that they are writing for a series, and that the other characters should get fair treatment. The authors of the NJO favored Mara as a character, and Luke/Mara as a couple, so heavily that it triggered a backlash, particularly among Han/Leia fans, who were sick of their couple getting all the abuse while Luke/Mara's romance was treated as if it was holy and sacred. Like I said earlier, it took three years of campaigning for Han/Leia fans to get even a fraction of the treatment for their couple that Luke/Mara had been receiving all along.

Even as late as "Destiny's Way," Luke and Mara were kissing and cuddling while Han and Leia sat on opposite ends of a couch. And when Jacen finally returned to his family, Luke and Mara got the lengthy, on-page reunion with him -- while Han and Leia got a brief reunion told in flashback. When Han/Leia fans complained, the author said, "Jacen had already been reunited with Luke and Mara. Any other reunions were redundant." That was just another in an endless series of incidents where Luke/Mara were given a banquet, and Han/Leia, if they were lucky, got the crumbs brushed off their laps.

At first I thought they were supposed to till I learned they didn't have to, but did have to go through some people from Lucasfilm or whatever it is they go through. I do know that, darn name argh!, had to go to Lucas to ask if he could kill of Chewie.
^The author was Salvatore. He didn't personally ask Lucas if he could kill Chewie. What happened was that, when the NJO was being planned, the publisher planned to kill off Luke. Lucas forbade them to do so; they asked if they could kill off Chewie instead. Lucas said yes. Salvatore was the author who got the assignment.

So on a happy note, how did you Easter go? Ours was fine, see you later. smilesmall.gif
^Mine was OK, thanks.


--------------------
Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 17 2009, 11:41 PM
Post #12


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But even feeling regret doesn't make either of them worthy of Jedi Masterhood.
^I guess forgiveness is real easy in their world.

I consider it more likely that Jacen left because he was grossed out by his middle-aged uncle and aunt making out.
^Probably as anyone would be.

You can have Force sensitivity and use the Force without being a Jedi, Dark or otherwise.
^That again doesn't make sense to me, cause if you use the Force (for good or bad) even if you weren't taught, you're still using it for good or evil. True that it won't brand you a Jedi, Sith, etc, but you still used it for a particular purpose.

but I'm afraid the EU authors don't take it with regards to the characters.
^Especially with the Swarm War or whatever where Jacen wasn't married to Tenel Ka but still had a child.

it took three years of campaigning for Han/Leia fans to get even a fraction of the treatment
^Where did they complain? I'm just curious, I've seen only a few people complain about it on here. Is it more on sw.com?

Lucas said yes. Salvatore was the author who got the assignment.
^Oh thanks for clearing that up. I thought he was the one with the plot to kill Chewie off; well at least Luke didn't die.

I'm sorry if I'm not writing enough, but I think we're both still going to be on ends about this how Leia was treated issue. But it was nice to discuss it with you. smilesmall.gif





--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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Leiafan
post Apr 18 2009, 07:10 AM
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I guess forgiveness is real easy in their world.
^No wonder Luke's Jedi Order is such a mess. Forgiveness is one thing -- handing Jedi Masterhood to the likes of Mara and Kyp is entirely another.

Probably as anyone would be.
^But Mara, being as self-absorbed as she is, says that Jacen left because he's jealous of what she and Luke have. Because everything is ALWAYS about Mara, Mara, Mara.

That again doesn't make sense to me, cause if you use the Force (for good or bad) even if you weren't taught, you're still using it for good or evil. True that it won't brand you a Jedi, Sith, etc, but you still used it for a particular purpose.
^That's what I meant. Mara used the Force for evil, but she wasn't a Sith or a Dark Jedi.

Where did they complain? I'm just curious, I've seen only a few people complain about it on here. Is it more on sw.com?
^I don't think it was on sw.com. Mostly it was on TheForce.net's message boards, and on Han/Leia sites. They gathered together to discuss the way Han and Leia were being abused, signed petitions, sent e-mails to Del Rey and LFL's Literature department. They were fed up with the abuse of Han and Leia. I am quite sure that the book "Tatooine Ghost" never would have been written if not for that campaign. And the few personal/intimate scenes that Han and Leia got toward the end of the NJO were also a direct result of the campaign.

I honestly don't understand why it took three years of campaigning, and at least a half-dozen disappointing books that gave everything to Luke/Mara, for Han/Leia fans to get semi-decent treatment for their couple. When Luke/Mara fans complained about the lack of personal scenes between their couple in ONE book -- "Vector Prime" -- Del Rey sat up and took notice, and proceeded to saturate almost every subsequent book with Luke/Mara love scenes, as well as assurances that Mara is the only woman Luke ever loved...while simultaneously abusing and degrading Han/Leia, and dragging in a mention of that Bria idiot as Han's "first love."

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I thought he was the one with the plot to kill Chewie off; well at least Luke didn't die.
^Actually, I think the real Luke DID die. The Luke who meandered through the NJO in no way resembles the Luke in the OT...who saved his father's soul, who would never THINK about joining the Dark Side, who loved and cared for Leia and Han, who attacked and nearly killed Vader when Vader threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side, who stood up to the Emperor. NJO Luke sat on his derriere while Leia was captured and tortured, ignoring her pleas to him through the Force to save her. NJO Luke thought about following Mara to the "Empire of the Hand." NJO Luke just sat there while his wife treated his sister like garbage. NJO Luke turned over his brain and spine to Mara, and wouldn't sneeze without her written, notarized permission.

I'm sorry if I'm not writing enough, but I think we're both still going to be on ends about this how Leia was treated issue. But it was nice to discuss it with you. smilesmall.gif
^Yes, it was. I've had Mara fans attack me and accuse me of everything from having no compassion for abused children (confusedbig.gif) to being a knuckle-dragging sexist Neanderthal who "has a problem with strong women" and "thinks women should be seen and not heard." Both claims are ludicrous, but the Mara fans I've encountered are ferociously protective of her and intolerant of criticism of her, and even say that if you criticize her, you're "attacking her fans." Ooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaay. Do they wear "Sisterhood" shirts and draw pics of Mara wearing the same shirt?


--------------------
Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Rebel_A96
post Apr 19 2009, 09:14 PM
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No wonder Luke's Jedi Order is such a mess.
^Forgiveness is the best way to get on with life. Grudges, no matter how small or large, are terrible to hold.

That's what I meant.
^Oh okay, now I get you.

while simultaneously abusing and degrading Han/Leia
^I know I said this before, but I'm really going to have to read some of the NJO again to see how they wrote Han/Leia's relationship.

I've had Mara fans attack me and accuse me of everything
^People get too wound up on fictional characters and should learn to just listen what others have to say even if they don't want to hear it. There are a lot of people in this world that are intolerable and should just sit down, shut up, and listen to what others have to say. (I mean for the big picture as well).


--------------------
Let's start at the top shall we? The Sith Wars, Palpatine's Empire, Thrawn's siege, Vong invasion, Second Galactic Civil War, I could go on. Point is the enemy hasn't vanished and we're fighting new people/aliens/species every day.

This has always been a Force War and we, as non-Jedi, will still help rid the universe of their evil. That's on one side of the galaxy, on the other our friends: Luke, Han, Leia, Wedge, Iella, Corran, Mirax, etc are still trying to keep the peace. They've thwarted Abeltoth, but others will soon come their way...and ours.

We shall meet these enemies on both sides of the galaxy head on to defeat them. And when we do meet them, it'll be with the same determination, hope, and perseverance all of us have always shown.

None of this is easy as people/aliens/pets/animals are injured or die every day. But to keep the galaxy safe, we'll do all we can to win, for both sides of the galaxy. To ensure peace, we will keep fighting.

Wish us luck, wish us the Force, and pray for us as we'll need it going up against these formidable foes.



(Have been playing SW for over 17yrs--as of 2014--and I also follow the books. I will continue this role playing until I no longer can.) Also I just wanted to thank all who answered my threads and have chatted with me throughout the years; all of you are fun, awesome, caring, friendly, smart, (etc) and are my good/best friends. I will miss talking to you.
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darthnecrum
post Apr 20 2009, 03:32 PM
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looks like by giving leia a rough time it adds intrigue cos everybody loves her and feels especially sympathetic

An old publishing maxim: "you don't have to make them feel good, you just have to make them feel something".


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Callista Min
post Jun 8 2009, 06:00 PM
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darthnecrum makes two excellent points.

Fiction is all about conflict, and suffering is part of that.

BTW, though...while something pretty awful happens to Leia in "Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor", something very, very cool about her character is revealed/explored.


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This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.
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Leiafan
post Feb 27 2010, 10:53 PM
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QUOTE (Callista Min @ Jun 8 2009, 06:00 PM) *
darthnecrum makes two excellent points.

Fiction is all about conflict, and suffering is part of that.

Apparently that only applies to certain characters in the EU, and not to others. Leia is made to suffer brutally, many times. Mara hardly suffers at all. Meanwhile, everyone in the books goes on and on about Mara's "strength" and "bravery," while ignoring/insulting Leia.

It's odd that Mara, who was supposed to be a Jedi master and "so much more confident in the Force" than Leia, as the NJO reminds us every sixteen pages, still broadcast her labor pains all over the galaxy. Some 20 years before, Leia, who was only a padawan at the time, gave birth to twins...and had enough control over the Force NOT to broadcast her labor pains all over the galaxy. Yet in the NJO, Mara was a Jedi master; Leia was "half-trained and uncertain in the Force."

It would've been nice to see Mara face the music for her wrongs, but she never did...which was especially galling since she felt free to castigate everyone else for their wrongs and no one told her, "Look who's talking!" Now that the shrew has died, she's been elevated to sainthood...which was almost redundant, considering that when she was alive, she was revered more than just about any other character, and practically a saint already.

If fiction is about conflict, and suffering is part of that, then Mara should have done her fair share of suffering. She didn't come anywhere near doing so. Nor did she show a shred of compassion for the suffering of others.


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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zedhatch
post Feb 28 2010, 08:33 AM
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I was always bothered she was so hot at 60 when she died, not sure why that is.

I read through most of what was said but skipped over a few things, but I wanted to add about Mara's "pureness"

She was raised in a sith envirnment and taught at an early age sith ideals. The fact she didn't totally give in to them and embrace the darkside is very plauseable. This kind of behavior exists a great deal in the world (Racist parents raise a child who is ultimatly tollerant of others, or even the reverse). Point being people can get beyond thier experence.


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Leiafan
post Mar 1 2010, 04:37 AM
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You make an interesting point about racist parents raising kids who reject their teachings.

Mara didn't "reject" a thing. The only reason she left the Empire was because the Emperor died. The only reason she didn't go back to the remnants was because she wouldn't have had her status, position, respect, etc. back. She said that herself, to Luke, when she was telling him why he deserved to die for taking her "wonderful life" away from her.

Kids who grow up in racist environments and reject the teachings do so at great cost to themselves. Racist groups, particularly the Klan, do NOT take kindly to defectors. They think nothing of killing defectors, often as viciously as possible. Therefore, I am very impressed by people who escape that life.

Mara, as I pointed out before, didn't "escape" anything. She liked working for the Empire. She did not leave of her own free will -- which is also why the attempts to absolve her by saying that other characters worked for the Empire doesn't wash with me. Those people left of their own free will, risking death. Mara did not. And her service to the Empire was NOT "selfless." She was amply rewarded for it, and she liked that.

So, sorry, I'm not buying the idea that Mara "kept herself pure." She was a throat-slitter for the Emperor. She could have left, but she lacked the strength and the moral fiber to do so. Zahn's and other author's clumsy attempts to paint her as some innocent do not square with what she was. Some have said she was "dark on the outside, light on the inside." To which I ask: what, like an Oreo cookie?

Zahn himself wrote her background when he created her. Yet he's done nothing but backpedal since then, trying to make her out to be a blameless victim. Those who try to excuse Mara's disgusting behavior in the NJO say that "she was not written by her creator" in those books. True, but her creator didn't do her any favors either. In fact, he's the one who started the whole "Mara has it both ways" trend, which is part of what makes me detest her so.

Mara gets to have a dark past but never has to take responsibility for it. Mara slit throats for the Emperor but she "kept herself pure," and can therefore pass judgement on everyone else. Mara acts like an insensitive, self-absorbed uber-shrew, but that's OK because she was raised by the Emperor. But wait...I thought Mara "kept herself pure" during that time. Zahn, using Luke as a mouthpiece, even absolved her of all the blood on her hands by saying she "served the Empire selflessly" (no she didn't) and "was therefore doing the work of a Jedi."


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Zhuge Liang
post Mar 9 2010, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Leiafan @ Apr 9 2009, 06:07 PM) *
^I really doubt that, Rebel. When she was captured by the Vong and tortured, the rest of the characters barely noticed. Anakin didn't even care; Jacen used the moment to reflect on how "uncertain" and "weak" Leia was; and Jaina was too busy being a self-absorbed brat, smirking about her mother's ineptitude, while kissing up to Mara at the same time. Luke completely ignored Leia, and went back to his regularly scheduled schmooping with Mara.


Teenagers acting out against their parents. Not surprising.


QUOTE (Leiafan @ Feb 28 2010, 09:37 PM) *
So, sorry, I'm not buying the idea that Mara "kept herself pure." She was a throat-slitter for the Emperor. She could have left, but she lacked the strength and the moral fiber to do so. Zahn's and other author's clumsy attempts to paint her as some innocent do not square with what she was. Some have said she was "dark on the outside, light on the inside." To which I ask: what, like an Oreo cookie?

Yeah, because you can just wash your hands of the Emperor and not expect repercussions.


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You, you, next victim, you next to die.
You, you, next victim, you, your turn to die.
You, come on, next victim, you, your turn to die.
You, come on, next victim, you, your turn to die.
You die!
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