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> The two red-gold Mary Sues
Leiafan
post Oct 11 2010, 05:39 AM
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The reason I detest Mara Jade so much is because she is a huge Mary Sue, not unlike another Mary Sue with "red-gold hair," Bria Tharen. Bria, by the way, is also dead. However, her presence continues to stink up the EU, as "Han's first love." That especially irritates me, because Mara gets to be HER husband's "first love," never mind that he in fact loved and wanted to marry at least one previous girlfriend: Callista.

I might add that Han's past love life has been rewritten to include a weak-willed, whiny loser of a woman (Bria) as his "first love" (who has been described as such, repeatedly), despite the fact that both Han's creator and his portrayer have said that Han "never knew love" or "was never in love" before he met Leia. That does NOT mean that Han was celibate; I've never encountered anyone who thought he was. But there is a difference between sex and love, and I think it is quite believable that Han had had many lovers, perhaps even girlfriends, but he had never been IN LOVE before he met Leia.

Meanwhile, though the EU has Luke falling in love with and wanted to marry Callista (not that I care much for her either), his love life has been rewritten so that Mara is "the only woman he ever loved."

I do not see why Mara gets to be "the only woman that Luke ever loved," whereas Leia cannot be likewise for Han...more than that, Luke's past girlfriends are never brought up, whereas Bria has been brought up at least twice, in the context of being Han's "first love." One of those times was during Han and Leia's separation: Han smilingly remembers "the good times" with the weak-willed bimbo Bria, who betrayed him and dumped him repeatedly, while flat-out saying that the times since, with Leia, weren't good. The EU authors would never have DARED had a scene where Luke reminisced about the good times with Callista, much less said that the times since, with Mara, weren't good. Mara is "more than Luke deserves, all he ever wanted." He even says so. Han never says or even thinks that about Leia.

That is just one more unearned glorification that Mara has been granted, at Leia's expense. "Balance Point" even has a part where Leia wonders if Han loves her as much as Luke loves Mara. And practically every single NJO book makes it a point to say Mara is the only woman Luke ever loved, but refuses to do likewise with Han and Leia. It infuriates me to see Luke and Mara's relationship treated as if it were sacrosanct, while Han and Leia's is repeatedly crapped on.

Han and Leia's romance was established in the movies. Luke and Mara's was established in the EU. Yet Luke and Mara's romance gets the preferential treatment in the EU. And kindly don't say that "Mara got killed." Yes, she did. And it was presented as the greatest tragedy the GFFA ever faced, with Luke being grief-stricken...plus Han and Leia lost another child, since Jacen is the one who killed Mara. Mara got a funeral, which is more than just about any other character, EU and movie, has ever gotten.


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quinlan voss
post Oct 11 2010, 08:22 AM
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Are you STILL going on about Mara Jade? I know everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum but I think we kind of all know you hate her now! Can you not talk about anything else apart from your hate of the E.U and that Woman?


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Madison_rogue
post Oct 11 2010, 11:08 AM
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QUOTE (quinlan voss @ Oct 11 2010, 02:22 AM) *
Are you STILL going on about Mara Jade? I know everyone is entitled to their opinion on this forum but I think we kind of all know you hate her now! Can you not talk about anything else apart from your hate of the E.U and that Woman?


sw-rebel.gif

*coughs*

Peter Jackson

*coughs*

But seriously, I want to know the point where Leiafan started to identify Mara as a "Mary Sue." I mean there seems to be some evidence that Zahn didn't expect MJ's character to explode in popularity like she did. Seems that the general consensus is that MJ became this near perfect character free of criticism in the NJO series. I don't really know because I haven't read the books, however it seems that authors who wrote MJ after Zahn embellished quite a bit of her history (and I don't know much about Zahn's work, so excuse me). So, I would gather that Mara as a Mary Sue, didn't really present itself until after Heir to the Empire.

FTR, I'm not a fan of the EU post ROTJ. To me, most of it is rather unbelievable (like the Yuuzhan Vong), and I'm more a fan of the GFFA history from about the time of Darth Revan. History interests me, not the future "possibilities" presented after Palpatine's death.

Well...apparently his first death. Whatevs. That whole clone thing kind of puts me off, honestly.

I would like to have a amicable discussion on this. I mean, regardless of the seemingly confrontational nature of the OP, I think there is some legitimacy in exploring it.


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Leiafan
post Oct 11 2010, 06:36 PM
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Thanks, Madison. I understand why this topic looks confrontational, given that I'm the one who started it, but it isn't. It also goes beyond "I hate Mara" and "I hate the EU." Everyone knows how I feel about Mara, and I don't hate the EU...there are many EU books, as well as comics, that I enjoyed. What I wanted to do was explore one of the reasons why she irritates me so much...I think she gets preferential treatment over Leia, and one of the ways is that her romance with Luke is treated as sacrosanct, whereas Leia's with Han is disrespected repeatedly.

Some people have told me that Mara can't be a Mary Sue because a man created her. Actually, a Mary Sue is USUALLY the same gender as their creator, but not INVARIABLY. For instance, one of the biggest Mary Sues, or Gary Stus, of all time is Lestat the vampire, and his creator, Anne Rice, is a woman. Also, Mara doesn't start out a Mary Sue. As I wrote in another post, she's pretty well-integrated into the story in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy. I even liked her back then. It wasn't until later, specifically the NJO, that she got Sue-ified. Zahn set the stage for her Sue-ification in the "Hand of Thrawn" duology (Luke tells her her service to the Emperor was "selfless" -- no it wasn't! -- and then actually says she was really doing the work of a Jedi; plus we're asked to believe that all the people she killed were evil in their own right, so she's totally blameless and innocent), but other authors Sue-ified her in the NJO.

Zahn isn't off the hook, though. In his book that takes place between the events of ANH and ESB, she is so Sue-ified it isn't even funny.

Anyway...Bria was a Sue from the first. Not only that, but the creation of her character rewrites all kinds of history, both in the movies and in the EU. Luke and Mara's romance rewrites EU history, but for some reason the authors treat it as if it was holy and sacred, while feeling free to crap all over Han and Leia's. It wasn't until Han/Leia fans had crusaded for better treatment of their couple that the abuse of Han and Leia abated...though they were still given crumbs while Luke and Mara got one banquet after another. What sparked the crusade was "Balance Point," which gypped Han and Leia out of a decent reunion and read like one long romance fanfic for Luke/Mara, and a Mary Sue fanfic for Mara.


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Madison_rogue
post Oct 12 2010, 01:02 AM
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Well, do you think (regardless of the whole funeral scene, and subsequent writings) that killing off Mara was directly associated with the whole Mary Sue backlash? Seems a lot of her fans were quite incensed with the manner in which she died, which, I would believe, would at least give some satisfaction for readers such as yourself.

Hypothetically, lets say that Lucasfilm (or whatever entity governs EU novels) decided that Mara Jade's characterization had gone totally out of control. I would think the only way to properly deal with that situation would be to kill off the character, and possibly in a relatively mundane fashion to essentially knock them down a level. I mean, once you develop a character in the manner MJ was, I don't believe you can just devolve the character back to her basics.

I think it's possible that this is the route Lucas took to prevent MJ's further development into the absurd. What do you think?

I'm not saying that I like or dislike her, but I do realize that her character development had crossed a line.


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Leiafan
post Oct 13 2010, 03:08 AM
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Good question, Madison. I can't read the minds of the folks at Del Rey and LFL Literature, but it seems to me that they adored Mara and justified the excessive page space given to her, her red-gold hair, her strength, her beauty, and her all-around wonderfulness....

*burp*

'Scuse me.

...by saying that she was "overwhelmingly popular." This belief was based on a single SW Insider poll, taken circa 1998, in which she was 20th on the list of "20 Favorite SW Characters" -- the only purely EU character to make the list.

Well, it's not 1998 anymore. 1998 is twelve years past. And I would add that that poll was taken before she became a major character (which is when the worst problems with her started, IMO), and also before the prequels started coming out....despite what bashers and their representatives in the media would have everyone believe, the prequel characters are popular. Also, Mara's behavior in the NJO resulted in several hits to her popularity, such as her appalling insensitivity when Anakin Solo died. Even some of her fans complained about that.

I don't think Lucas played any role in the decision to kill Mara off. In fact, I doubt he has more than cursory knowledge of who she is.

IMO the biggest problem with her character was that she was pushed into the major "cast," so to speak, without any corresponding development of her character. She was still the same insensitive, self-absorbed uber-shrew she'd always been, only now, her bitchiness was annoying instead of occasionally entertaining.

Yes, I got some satisfaction out of her dying. I just wish it had happened sooner, and didn't result in Han and Leia losing another kid. I heard her fans were incensed over the manner in which she died. Call me cold, but I don't feel much sympathy for them.

Mara desperately needed to be knocked down a few (hundred) pegs, while she was still alive. The authors had plenty of opportunities to do so, but took none of them. I think you may have a point that her character development, such as it was, crossed a line. That is, it wasn't really development, it was blatant glorification. Can-do-no-wrong characters that everyone adores (i.e., Mary Sues) are rarely, if ever, compelling. Also, it was curious how the NJO, in particular, gushed about Mara's wonderfulness at the same time they had her acting like a horse's hiney.

I remember commenting elsewhere that Luke never stands up to her when she goes on one of her tirades, even if she's insulting one of his relatives. Someone answered, "Maybe he's afraid of her wrath." Well, if her wrath is so great that he fears it, there's one more reason why he had no business making her a Jedi master.


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Madison_rogue
post Oct 14 2010, 11:49 AM
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You know, the rant isn't really necessary. You have an audience. I don't care about the 1998 poll, the novels, other site comments, etc. I haven't said those things you've read in different forums, and I don't really care about other sites. I belong to this site (and this site only), and as far as I'm aware we've never had a topic of this nature. So, we've identified that MJ was a Mary Sue. We can move on from the evidence backing that.

What I'm speculating is whether or not there was a decision to remove Mara Jade from the EU based upon her Mary Sue-ification, and the possibility (even though unlikely) that Lucas could have been involved. Can we have a constructive conversation about this?

In all honesty, it sounds as if your distaste should lie with the writers, and not necessarily Mara Jade. A character is only as good as the writers who characterize them. They're the ones who made her what she was in the EU. I mean, she started out as an interesting character, but as soon as her popularity skyrocketed (because of said now ancient outdated poll) the whole thing was blown way out of proportion. That's when it all seemed to really start (even though yes the groundwork was laid beforehand).

My thinking is that killing her off is a direct response to writers trying to make her as G-Canon a character as possible. I mean, couldn't you consider the popularity surrounding her a cash-cow? If that's the case, why kill her off?


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Leiafan
post Jul 4 2011, 08:35 AM
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You may have a point about my real distaste lying with the writers and not with the character. It was the writers who chose to make her into a Mary Sue, although they would surely deny it if asked. It was the writers who chose to glorify her at Leia's expense, although they would surely deny that too if asked.

I liked Mara when she was first introduced, and when she was still a sideline character who only popped up occasionally. It wasn't until she was made a major character and the writers started glorifying her that I started to detest her. The justification for the insertion of her into every corner of the EU, and the blatant attempts to raise her to the level of the movie characters, was that she was "overwhelmingly popular." Frankly, I think her ubiquitousness (if that's a word) outpaced her actual popularity by a fair country mile. In other words, the chick was probably never as popular as the writers/Del Rey bigwigs thought.

It's certainly possible that the decision to kill her off was a response to her becoming so overblown, although she continued to be overblown even after she died. However, I severely doubt that Lucas himself had anything to do with the decision to whack her. With some fairly rare exceptions, he doesn't get involved with the parallel universe (his words) of the EU at all. He probably doesn't even know, or care, who Mara is. So I don't see Lucas thinking her important enough to merit even the minor action of ordering her demise. The decision to kill her off was most likely made by whoever is in charge of LFL's Literature division.

As for her popularity being a cash cow, I doubt it. As I said above, she's probably not as popular as we've been led to believe. The novels centering around her didn't sell noticeably more copies than the average EU novel. (The comics centering around her were probably bigger sellers than the average SW comic, but then comics have their own, rather separate fandom.) As far as I can tell, the novels which take place after her death sell roughly as well as the novels which take place before her death.


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JediV
post Aug 12 2011, 06:24 PM
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Hallo here smile.gif if I can say my guess, maybe Mara Jade was killed, to allow the new generations of jedi, to emerge, of the old major jedi, is remained Luke, his son, Jaina and few other...but i'm not so deep in the eu...perhaps in the gffa, there was the need for fresh and new characters. Ehmm...make any sense? eyeball.gif



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Leiafan
post Aug 19 2011, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (JediV @ Aug 12 2011, 07:24 PM) *
Hallo here smile.gif if I can say my guess, maybe Mara Jade was killed, to allow the new generations of jedi, to emerge, of the old major jedi, is remained Luke, his son, Jaina and few other...but i'm not so deep in the eu...perhaps in the gffa, there was the need for fresh and new characters. Ehmm...make any sense? eyeball.gif

Well, none of the EU Jedi are anything to shout about.


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JediV
post Aug 20 2011, 03:58 AM
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In which sense?


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Leiafan
post Aug 20 2011, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (JediV @ Aug 20 2011, 03:58 AM) *
In which sense?

In every sense. smilehuge.gif


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JediV
post Aug 21 2011, 10:04 PM
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Uh oh! The EU jedi are going so bad?? Poor GFFA sadbig.gif ...perhaps a very powerful jedi will come back from past, to bring peace to the galaxy smile.gif ...maybe someone red-gold haired! scared.gif toungewink.gif


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Leiafan
post Aug 22 2011, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (JediV @ Aug 21 2011, 10:04 PM) *
Uh oh! The EU jedi are going so bad?? Poor GFFA sadbig.gif ...perhaps a very powerful jedi will come back from past, to bring peace to the galaxy smile.gif ...maybe someone red-gold haired! scared.gif toungewink.gif

Peace was brought to the galaxy at the end of ROTJ, so it doesn't really matter that the alternate universe (Lucas's words) of the EU, complete with its worthless red-gold Mary Sues, is in the toilet.


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JediV
post Aug 23 2011, 11:26 AM
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I agree with you, but well...then the toilet will be soon clogged smile.gif I heard, that many people says that there are a lot of Mary Sue over there.


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Jedi Gurl
post Jan 18 2012, 02:35 AM
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Okay I just want to say for this whole Mara Jade Mary Sue business. I have to admit I didnt know what Mary-sue meant and had to google it. What I got is that it is a criticism to say that a character is too inhumanly flawless. Having no weakness. That simply isnt what I see in Mara Jade. You see being a huge fan of hers I see that she does have flaws. She is a strong female character that stands against every evil that threatens to tear her down. That doesnt make her a mary-sue that makes her inspiring. I should know because being a thirteen year old going into her lost teen years Mara Jade gave me strength she was who I inspired to be because I saw that she didnt let things stop her from fighting. She helped become the woman that I am today. She isnt perfect, she just doesnt let her imperfections stop her.


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Shistavanen Jedi
post Feb 12 2012, 07:40 PM
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My problem with Mara Jade started after she married Luke. Before then she was a character in her own right but after that Mara just becomes a wife and that's it. (With the novels, I haven't read any set after Sacrifice and I didn't get through that because I got fed up of the Grand Master Skywalker thing. Talking about Sues and Stus, Luke pretty much becomes one himself after NJO). I put it partly down to the way authors have written her after the Union graphic novel, why people think of her that way. I write fan fiction quite a bit but have not done so for the past three years or so because I was busy with Uni stuff and I remember a discussion on the Force.net where I basically discribed a character like Mara if being an original character, would have been a Mary Sue.

However, I think that any character who became the love of Luke's life (Callista included) would have ended up with the title of Mary Sue simply because of the fact they Luke falls in love with them. If George Lucas had created a character in the Original Trilogy who became Luke's wife, (and they were seen to have been in love during the movies) then I think the Mary Sue label might not have been put on that character who ever she might have been, if that makes sense.

As for Bria, I wasn't aware that authors still talked about her. I don't hold anything against A. C. Crispin though because her trilogy are among my favourites in the entire EU, and look upon the relationship more as a mistake that young people make when they think they've fallen in love, but really haven't.

QUOTE
Hallo here smile.gif if I can say my guess, maybe Mara Jade was killed, to allow the new generations of jedi, to emerge, of the old major jedi, is remained Luke, his son, Jaina and few other...but i'm not so deep in the eu...perhaps in the gffa, there was the need for fresh and new characters. Ehmm...make any sense? eyeball.gif


I would have agreed with that, if most of the young Jedi - Anakin Solo, Jacen Solo, Tahriri, Raynor Thul ect haven't been killed off or turned to the dark side or in the case of Lowbacca and Teaser Sabntyne not ignored in the books after NJO.


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Leiafan
post Feb 25 2012, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (Jedi Gurl @ Jan 18 2012, 02:35 AM) *
Okay I just want to say for this whole Mara Jade Mary Sue business. I have to admit I didnt know what Mary-sue meant and had to google it. What I got is that it is a criticism to say that a character is too inhumanly flawless. Having no weakness.

No, actually. The character has flaws, but the rest of the characters don't see them, or else speak about them as if they were strengths. For instance, Mara is supremely self-centered and extremely insensitive, refusing to shut her yap no matter how inappropriate, hypocritical, or just plain mean-spirited her opinion is. Yet no one tells her to be quiet, or ever gets fed up with her behavior. Indeed, the authors feel compelled to keep reminding us of how wonderful Luke thinks Mara is, and how she can always be relied upon to "tell it like it is." He never tells her to maybe back off a little when she's ripping into Leia, either to Leia's face or behind her back. He never questions his decision to make this bad-tempered, violent, totally insensitive woman a Jedi master.

As for having no weaknesses...well, if Mara had any, none of the characters noticed them. The NJO reminded the reader roughly three thousand times, per book, that Mara was a fount of strength, with other characters wishing they could be strong like her, or that their family members could be strong like her. And it's funny how she emerged from her supposedly "fatal" illness more youthful and beautiful than ever.

Meanwhile Leia endured her husband walking out on her, the collapse of the government she'd presided over, nearly being tortured to death and almost losing her legs, virtually no personal time with her husband even after they reunited (meanwhile Luke and Mara got gobs of personal scenes and screwed like minks throughout the whole series), estrangement from her children (all of whom cared more about Mara than about her), and the death of her youngest child. Yet seldom, if ever, did anyone remark on her strength.

Anakin Solo dies, Mara tells Luke to stop grieving and displays no compassion whatsoever for Leia. Leia, meanwhile, continues to help everyone she can and even castigates herself for her "selfishness" in wallowing in grief when there were people who needed her. But it's Mara whose strength is remarked on. And the authors let her off the hook for her atrocious behavior after Anakin died, by having Luke think that "she had grieved as deeply as he had, she just hid it." Yeah, right. She didn't grieve at ALL, and since when does she hide her emotions -- any of them? She's always the first to share whatever she's feeling with anyone who will listen.

QUOTE
That simply isnt what I see in Mara Jade. You see being a huge fan of hers I see that she does have flaws. She is a strong female character that stands against every evil that threatens to tear her down.

I don't think she's strong. She got everything she has by latching onto powerful men. And she didn't fight evil, she served it for many years -- nor does she express any regret whatsoever over doing so. In fact, the only reason she didn't rejoin the Empire was because she wouldn't have gotten her old position back. She still talks about Palpatine fondly, around people whose planets, families, and lives Palpatine destroyed.

No one ever brings up her unsavory past, but she feels free to pass judgement on everyone else for their mistakes. She became a Jedi and then a Jedi master despite not earning either title. Whatever effort she's put forward to fight against evil, she has been amply -- in fact, lavishly -- rewarded for. On the other hand, Leia, who has fought against evil all her life, endured torture and the destruction of her planet and lived in barely habitable conditions (meanwhile Mara was getting her feet massaged at ritzy spas as a reward for serving the Emperor), is insulted and degraded.

QUOTE
That doesnt make her a mary-sue that makes her inspiring. I should know because being a thirteen year old going into her lost teen years Mara Jade gave me strength she was who I inspired to be because I saw that she didnt let things stop her from fighting. She helped become the woman that I am today.

OK. Myself, I see Leia as a much better role model, because she cares about others and keeps fighting for good without hope of reward, and is the only Force-sensitive member of her family to never even be tempted by the Dark Side. Mara fights for herself, Leia fights for others, even when the others don't appreciate her. She offers compassion and comfort to Mara when Mara is ill; Mara couldn't care less about Leia when she suffers blow after blow and loss after loss.

In any case, Mara didn't give you strength; you gave you strength. It seems to me that you attributed qualities to her that you wanted to have, or more precisely, that you did have but hadn't realized fully. And if you choose to credit her, well, I think you're selling yourself short. I'm not saying this to flatter you, I'm saying this because I don't think Mara was any kind of role model, and because I think you chose to see qualities in her that she did not possess.

QUOTE
She isnt perfect, she just doesnt let her imperfections stop her.

Well, how can she let her imperfections stop her when she doesn't think she has any, and no one else does either? Mara never reflects on her past wrongs, except to once again remind herself of her "sacrifice": crashing her ship. Mara never feels doubt about her behavior, no matter how hateful and insensitive it was. Yet she's always the first to remind other people of their mistakes, and everyone nods along, reflecting on how "refreshingly honest" she is.


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Leiafan
post Feb 25 2012, 06:09 AM
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QUOTE (Shistavanen Jedi @ Feb 12 2012, 07:40 PM) *
My problem with Mara Jade started after she married Luke. Before then she was a character in her own right but after that Mara just becomes a wife and that's it.

And a Jedi master. And the greatest wife and mother in the galaxy. And a "surrogate mother" to Jaina Solo, who she didn't even meet until Jaina was almost grown. And an ideal of strength and beauty, who everyone admires and wishes they could be like.

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(With the novels, I haven't read any set after Sacrifice and I didn't get through that because I got fed up of the Grand Master Skywalker thing. Talking about Sues and Stus, Luke pretty much becomes one himself after NJO).

Well, at least he's not an incompetent doofus who can barely tie his own shoes and sits around basking in his wife's beauty while the galaxy falls to pieces around him, which is how he was in the NJO.

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However, I think that any character who became the love of Luke's life (Callista included)

Odd that Callista actually WAS the love of Luke's life, that Barbara Hambly's specific assignment was to create the love of his life...and now we're not supposed to even remember she existed.

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As for Bria, I wasn't aware that authors still talked about her. I don't hold anything against A. C. Crispin though because her trilogy are among my favourites in the entire EU, and look upon the relationship more as a mistake that young people make when they think they've fallen in love, but really haven't.

Tell that to the authors, who insist on naming Bria as Han's first love. I don't understand why the authors are so respectful of Luke/Mara's romance, even to the point of saying that they're a team in a way that Han and Leia could never understand, and to the point of ignoring that Luke did have girlfriends, in fact fell in love, before marrying Mara, but at the same time, feel so free to abuse Han and Leia's relationship so horrifically. Han and Leia have survived countless tragedies, any one of which by itself would have broken up most couples...yet Luke and Mara "are a team in a way that Han and Leia can never understand." And Bria is Han's "first love."


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Darth Vader would snap Mara Jade's throat like a twig -- if she was even worth the effort
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Jedi Gurl
post Aug 26 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #20


On Bespin in Lando's dining room
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QUOTE
For instance, Mara is supremely self-centered and extremely insensitive, refusing to shut her yap no matter how inappropriate, hypocritical, or just plain mean-spirited her opinion is. Yet no one tells her to be quiet, or ever gets fed up with her behavior.


Wow you make it sound like she just goes around hurting everybody's feelings. She never says anything like that unless it is warranted and she doesn't say things harshly or mean spirited. She gives advice like any other jedi master should. Just because she doesn't have Leia's diplomatic serenity and calm politeness all the time doesn't mean she's a horrible person.

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Meanwhile Leia endured her husband walking out on her, the collapse of the government she'd presided over, nearly being tortured to death and almost losing her legs, virtually no personal time with her husband even after they reunited (meanwhile Luke and Mara got gobs of personal scenes and screwed like minks throughout the whole series), estrangement from her children (all of whom cared more about Mara than about her), and the death of her youngest child. Yet seldom, if ever, did anyone remark on her strength.


Yes Leia endured alot in the NJO, I agree with you on that, but I don't think her strength was ignored. Everyone already knows that Leia is strong and great. The authors didn't ignore that. The other characters didn't ignore that.And the fans don't ignore it. Leia gets plenty of credit. And to say that Mara and Luke "Screwed like minks" is over exaggerating their romantic moments in the books. Also keep in mind that Luke and Mara seldom saw each other in the first few years of their marriage.
Also Mara cared for Anakin as much as anyone else. She happens to be fighting a war, and wasn't a blood relative of his she didn't feel it in the force like others did. That doesn't mean she didn't grieve at all. when my dad died I got over it, that doesn't mean I didn't love him or didn't care. It just means that I knew I had to move on.

You really seem to hate mara Jade and I understand that nothing i type here will change that. But just the same nothing you say will change how I feel for Mara Jade. She will always be my favorite character. tounge.gif



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