Hello 2 all

I am Jewish and my country is Israel.
Right now, there's a war going on at the south areas of Israel... I am not sure for the excact reason, but the arabs have decided to put blame on Jews for the attack... Even though they mostly suicided our schools and busses and even malls. -im not saying that all of the arabs are like that- im saying that a lot of them want to see... well... you probably know what they want to happen to us...

If you have any advise of your own or you wanna add something... or even just talk about anything you want about religion- go ahead.

I'm sorry about all the wars that are being fought over there. It's a shame that people can't try to get along or settle something where everyone is happy. I hope you and others you know try to stay safe.

Not many people like to discuss religion as it can erupt arguments, although BH is one of the better forums in where everyone understands others and if there is a fight the mods are on them like glue. So with here, I think people can discuss anything--that's the fun part about being a part of here. But to answer your question, I'm Christian.

I'm Christian, too

Thx for the replies =)

I've heard that christians don't like Jews... Is that true to all christians?
im sure not- but to the ones who do not like Jews- why?

Until today I still didn't understand why Christians dislike Jews so much... is it because the past?

-and Im not talking about all of the christians....
just the few that stand for what I said....

I don't think Christians dislike Jewish people at all, we just believe in something different than you do. You believe the Messiah still has yet to come, when we believe the Messiah has come in the form of Jesus Christ. And I don't hate anyone. As children of God, and for all those religions who believe, we're not supposed to hate.

The people who do fight, in my opinion, think they believe in God when they don't as 1-it's been going on for way to long where I think maybe they forget what they're actually fighting about and I mean that in where if people really looked at what they're fighting over, they'll think to themselves that it's just wrong what they've been doing for millions of years and 2-why can't people come up with a pleasant resolution?

Then when something peaceful does come up, some idiot says something to someone else and gets them riled up where the war starts up again. Whatever happened to forgiveness?

Anyway I'm sorry if that didn't specifically answer your question. My parents know more about it and I could ask them later, if you wanted me too. And I know this is off topic--but I like your screen name.

That's an easy question, but the answer is difficult and complex.

I think one point of disliking jews is not because of the past (but that happens, too) but because they're thinking in their own ways, which are not easily understood by some.
And never forget that if people want to blame others for their failure/loss/wrath/whatever it is best when those others don't strike back.

I understand that the jews adhere to the biblical rule "If you get slapped on your right cheek, present him your left, too" (something like that - I don't have an english bible at home) and that's very close to pacifism.
Some people just can't refuse if they want to get physical and the other one isn't defending himself at all.

And to answer your question, I'm Asatru, meaning that I believe in the pantheon of Odin, Thor and all the others. One of the pillars of that faith is to respect other gods and religions - and if you like, you may pray to other gods, too. Asatru isn't exclusive.

Slight correction here, that was Jesus in the New Testament (Matthew 5:38-42), which Jews do not aknowledge als a foundation of their religion.
The Old Testament (that Christians and Jews (who call it Tanakh) share alike) however states "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" (Exodus 21:23–27).
This is not to say that any of the said religions refers to retributive justice in principle, those statements come from a time an age that has little to do with our times, so in my humble oppinion all biblical (and simmilar) quotes should be taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks for that Rebel. Yes, religion is a sensitive subject. Done right though, there are few things more interesting to discuss, in my view.

To answer your question Shark, I'm neither Jew or Christian. I'm atheist. We're lucky to have a diverse crowd here in the forum and I join the rest of the members who posted in this topic in being horrified at what's happening in your country.

I don't have any advice per say. If it's any comfort at all to you - my country is roughly the same size (population wise) as yours. It's got an ancient, patchy and bloody history. There's been times of war when people thought they'd never see an end to the conflict in their life times. And yet, in hindsight we now know that things can change and change quickly. Don't loose hope.

I agree

I'm Christian, I'm not that religious but I like Jews just as much as any other person. I don't even know what religion most of my friends are.

I'm Agnostic, can't make my mind up about anything (not just religion)

I believe that often religion is used as an excuse for picking a fight, from (to some extent) the Crusades to the current US occupation of the Middle East.

^ Is occupation the right word or does it just mean having a job? >.<

I've just finished Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden? by that Supersize Me guy, offered an insight into life in that whole area, how people are almost desensitised to the violence around them

The main thing thats bothering me, though, is that many religions oppose each other- like the muslems....whom decided to go to war against Israel..
I asked a few "friendly" muslems why they don't accept the peace offers and choose to film injured children on the war news-
the only answers i got from them was : 'it makes our god happy...' and 'only god decides everbodies destiny...' and 'we do want peace, but our god doesnt...'
so as you can see, its quite impossible to talk to them without them metioning what their 'god' thinks is right...

How can you get to an agreement if the other religion is opposing?

This is probably a stereotype of most people in the scientific field, though there are many scientists who have very strong faith. I am agnostic, leaning towards atheism, and I study physics.

This is a topic I discuss with friends very often, and I consider myself lucky that most of them can look at religion in a rational and reasonable way.

To me, it seems as if conflict due to a difference in religion is inevitable if religions consider themselves mutually exclusive and solely correct in the grand scheme of things.
I have no problem with faith. Religious people are generally nice and good. I hold missionaries and foundations set up to help the impoverished in very high regard.

However, there will always, always be those who believe that only they are 'right', and therein lies the problem. Once anyone considers themselves to be above scrutiny, above the possibility of being wrong, conflict is inevitable between them and those who argue otherwise, rational or not.

This is why I choose not to be affiliated with any religion. In the words of Douglas Adams, 'I am fascinated by religion. (That's a completely different thing from believing in it!)' I am fascinated by the way it has shaped human affairs over the entirety of history. I am fascinated by the number of people who have been affected by it, especially those who come from strong rational backgrounds. But I can no longer say I have any faith in the institution of religion.

EDIT: And fittingly, this post is my 666th. Oh boy.

Try not to think about it as Jews vs. Muslims, it is Israeli-Palestinian. If religion is brought to the forefront it makes an unfair generalisation (As well as justification for horrific acts). Turkey is a great example of a stable Islamic democracy and they aren't involved at all.

Now here's an oppinion I can totally agree with.
The conflict we are seeing primarily is one over ground and living space (without being able to prove it: I heard yesterday it's among the most densely populated parts on earth), about a feeling of "belonging" and "coming home" versus that of "invasion". A history of being evicted and pursued versus claiming a country ones ancestors have lived in so long one can concider it as one's homeland.
Religion was brought in later to justify one's claims and/or rally a people against the other.



PS: Please notice that I am not siding here.

I understand what you guys r trying to say and all, but the conflict here in Israel is more complicated than that...

I can't say we got the land first- but I can't say they did.. u see what i mean?
and the worse part of it is that the muslems bomb the ppl in Israel just because they think they got the land first and they want it back...
We have tried to settle the arguments by letting them take some land but they only ask for more and more.
you give them a finger-they take the hand...
if it was all up to them- they'd just kill ever1 in Israel and pretend it was the right thing to do...

It's difficult to come to an agreement when one side doesnt listen... or worse- blows themselves up in Israel's malls...

Im trying to become more Christan but i'm not baptised

Do you believe that you can only be a Christian if you are baptised? I'm just curious.

Partly this is because of my own experience with my church when I was younger. My father's family is Catholic, but I wasn't baptised until I was fifteen. After that, I was supposed to go for Sunday confirmation classes which are compulsory for Catholics apparently. Because being baptised isn't enough to confirm faith.

Anyhow, I skipped a couple of classes, since at the time my parents were awfully busy and only wanted to rest on Sundays. The administrator of the class sent a nasty email detailing how if I didn't have 80% attendance, I wouldn't be confirmed. My dad really blew his top at this and said I didn't have to go anymore. So I didn't.

My dad and I agree that faith shouldn't be about going for a class and getting a certificate. It is about belief. And hope, I suppose. Which is why I question the infallible nature which most orthodox religions are viewed.

Sorry for boring all of you with my anecdote. Again, just curious as to your opinions.

As for going to church I think you do need to take classes and be baptized and confirmation, but to me if you believe and follow God's ways than you're fine. You may hear different answers from others.

Normally you're baptized before being a teenager, but it really doesn't matter as long as you have your faith. And then there's the born again factor where you just don't say "I believe in God", it's where you fully embrace Him as your Lord. It's hard to explain, sorry. My mother knows much more about this than I do.

Wow... this one sliped by e.

Toanswer the first question, I am a christian. I believe stricktly what the bible says. If it doesn't line up witht he bible then I believe it is wrong.

However, as you guys were talking about (how there will always be those who think only they are right) I do not hold to an extreme.

Obviously I believe the bible is right or I wouldn't folow it, however I am certainly in no position to be telling other people what they are doing wrong or such. I respect other views as one of the basic biblical principles is all men and wemon have a right to make their own choices.
The bible also says as much as it is up to us to be at peace with all men.

I don't want to judge but I would venture to say those who call thmselves christians and hate the Jews, or those who think if you don't believe like them you must be shunned or the crusades... those people are not following God. God want's us to preach the gosple in love to those who are willing to listen. If you don't want religeon then that's your choice and I can respect that choice.



As far as batism goes, (as far as I can tell from a biblical standpoint) it is not required to be baptised for you to get into heaven. For example what if someone is on their death bed and dying...they ahve never been baptised and they are not physically capable... if they repent is God going to say "Sorry, you weren't baptized..." No, he's not. The theif on the cross during Jesus' crusifiction was saved and he didn't get baptised.
Baptism is a public confesion of our faith. So actualy I don't think you should get baptised until youhave made up your mind to follow God.



I realize most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and as I said though I disagree I can respect that view. Everyone is free to make their own choice.
I think, though, if you look in the bible and believe what it says Israel will never have peace until the end of days. It's sad, but that's the way I understand it. Christians who hate jews (if you pardon the word) are really quite stupid. (in the nicest possible way...) But how much sense does it make to read a jewish book (the bible) and believe in a Jewish God ( God and Jesus) and then hate the Jewish people.... that just doesn't add up.


Refering to the scientific field... well, I guess it really depends on what you are open to, what your beliefes are founded on, and so on.

If you ask some people they will say science disproves the reality of a Creator. However if you ask others they will say Science proves and supports the biblical standards, beliefes, history and such.

I won't get into the details because my post is already pretty long but if anyone is interested I'd be happy to converse through PMs.



In a nut shell... what Christianity is suposed to be about is loving and following God. Loveing others and helping them, showing God's love. We are not suposed to bash people, or critisize, or any of that stuff.
No offense, but if your not a christian I can respect that. On the other hand... if your a christian and your not following the bible you need to get it straight. Christianities bigest problem is christians who don't act like christians.

but yeah... I better wrap this up before I go (more) overboard. sorry all.

Well, I wasn't going to post anything, because I've always thought of my faith life being extremely personal, but what the hey!
Well, to start off, I am Christian-Catholic, I was recently confirmed, and yeah. I've never thought of the Bible as being meant to be taken strictly word for word. In fact, I believe it is really up to interpretation. It is full of stories of faith and how God works in wonderful and mysterious ways. I don't believe the world was created in a few days. I believe time doesn't apply to God, and that it really did take millions and millions of years for the earth to come to be. I've been criticized for believing what I do, but hey what are they gonna do about it? I've already been told I'm going to Hell by numerous other Christian sects. The thing about Christianity is that there are so many branches! It can be so overwhelming to someone who isn't Christian, or people who grew up like me, who thought that all Christians were the same. Apparently not, or so I was told. (I really don't believe that; I believe as long as you believe Christ died for your sins you are Christian).
My boyfriend is agnostic, and it is hard for him to understand how or why I Believe. I am always encouraging him to come to Mass with me, but I never pressure him. He will come when he feels comfortable.
I have "friends" who are convinced that Catholics are part of the reason why the world is so messed up. It always made me so mad. Insulting someone's religion like that is just plain hurtful.
I like to consider myself very tolerable of other religions, mostly because I don't consider it any of my business. For this I have also been criticized, because apparently I am supposed to go forth and spread the word of God to everyone. The very idea of waving my religion in other peoples' faces is just scary and annoying. If they already believe something else, what can I really do? (rhetorical question! )
Well, I'm not sure if there is much more I can add. My mad ramblings are officially over.

I'm Christian (Presbyterian) and I believe it's your own choice to get baptised or not. I'm not baptised but I still believe in God, though I've been told I'm going to Hell by believers and non-believers because of this and a number of my beliefs.

I think Christians misunderstand the other branches and get into fights over virtually nothing. All branches believe in God and how Jesus died for our sins on the cross.

I like finding out about other religions, especially Judism, as I think it's interesting how different peoples worship. I believe it's your choice how to worship and you shouldn't be prejudiced against for what you believe. It's a free world!!

Oh there I go again , thanks Dash. I keep thinking Christians and Catholics are the same, but I'm what you are too Dash.

And I'm sorry that you and anya have been criticized for your views on God. I think if anyone believe in God they aren't going to hell and also when you die there's something called a purgatory where it's sort of in the middle between heaven and hell. So if you sort of believe in God or not at all and still come to Him you can still make into heaven.

That's wrong for them to criticize you all; I mean how would they like it if we did that to them? The answer is they wouldn't, so why do it to us? Exactly anya--we all believe in God whether we'd be Baptist, Christian, Presbyterian, Messianic Jew, etc.

I believe it's your choice how to worship---yes again! God gave us free will or choice rather to either believe in Him or not. Some choose to and some don't. I hate it when people say that you're going to hell, well how do you know?...only God knows whether it's true or not.

And I'll stop now.

that's exactly what I was thinking. When I was about 6, I had this friend who was Evangelical and she actually told me that I had to do this prayer with her or I was going to Hell!

Dash, I will agree with you... someone who calls themself a christian shoudl not be critisizing and saying you are goign to hell as has been said God is the only one that trully knows where we are going to go when we die.

I dn't agree with your beliefe that things are not literal (some are not granted but I think most are) but I can still respect that beliefe.

The main problem I have with evolution and christians trying to "Fit millions of years into the bible" is that it undermines the veryfoundation of the bible. (Genesis)

I won't go into detail here because I don't want to start something... but I must confes that I don't quite understand what makes you think those things are not literal. *shrugs* No offense meant.




Rebel_A96, I know you and I have talked about spiritual maters a bit and some of the differences betweeen prodestents and catholics... but I do wonder this. Where in the bible to you get the idea of purgatory?
According to the way I understand the bible once you are dead it's to late. If you have not made your decesion by then.

Mathew 25 depicts this the main part being

"11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

As does Mathew 7 the main point in this chapter being

"21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."



Again... no offence meant I just wondered if there was a biblical reason for this beliefe. I guess I tend to goa little deep in these subjects. If I start crossing a line just let me know, that's certainly not my intention, but sometimes I can do so without intending to.


In the end I have to agree with your overall assuption. Faith in Jesus as our Messiah is the foundational issue, but I believe it requires an entire life style change from the ways of the world to the ways of God.

James says that he who breaks one aspect of the law breaks all aspects. (equiting the law to a chain... if one link is broken the entire chain is useless)

Also simply believing in God doesn't always do it. I know of people who believe God egsists but they revile him. Again, James tels us you do well to believe in God, but event he Demons believe, and tremble.

Jax--I forget where my mother told me she read about purgatory. Cause once I didn't believe it in either, you either went to heaven or you didn't. But when my mother came in telling me all about it, it sounded nice to me, so I started to believe in it and every night I pray that my two grandmothers, my aunt, and grandfather are ascended into God's heaven.

When the Bible says the world was made in seven days, I don't think they mean literally. But the thing that I always question (and perhaps someone can answer it for me) is that we know God created Adam and Eve and from what I gather they were humans like us. Then how the heck did we regress to the cave man and neanderthals?

And if God created the world with Adam and Eve being the first creatures on the planet, where do we fit the dinosaurs in it? Because during that time no human was present and we do know that dinosaurs did exist. So God created them first and then humans?

but I believe it requires an entire life style change
^Sounds like you're describing to be born again, which is an awesome feeling!! And no offense taken of course, I just hope I'm able to answer it the best to what I know and have retained. My mother and CCD teachers would kill me if they knew I forgot some of this stuff.

And Jax--question--do you read from the Book of James or the King James version of the Bible? I only ask cause you referred to James in your post.

Sorry if I'm off topic, y'all.

Well I know the Catholics have some scriptures that prodestants don't consider to be part of the bible. It could be something from there your mother was reading. But I must admitt... yes it sounds nice that you could get your friends and relatives into heaven... but I just don't get that from the bible. It's a personal individual choice the way I see it. *shrugs*

Well... ( *keeps self from going into long diatribe* lol) When the bible says seven days, according to the Hebrew language which it was writen in it actually does mean seven literal days. You see the hebrew word Yom (day) when mentioned with the words, morning, evening, night or mentioned with a number always means a literal day outside of Genesis. So why then (when the creation Yom is mentioned with all of these) should it be not a literal day? According to the original language it is a literal day. (I could go into more detail if your interested but perhaps it would be better suited for PMs)


And about cavemen and neandrethals.... A simple answer of how we "regressed" that way.... we didn't. Dinosaurs were created with all the other animals in the beginning. The skeleton "evidence" of cavemen and neandrethal men has been a scientific joke. If you look at the data most are hokses and others can be explained once they discover the source. (Bent over backs in several skeletons have been proven to be a result of athritis) Large jaw bones and ridges above the eyes come from lots of chewing on hard or tough food which they have also proven.
Again I could go into much greater detail but I have a feeling it would be better suited for a PM exchange.

*nods* Yes. We must be born again. But after that we must continue in the law of God. In every aspect of the law. We can not pick or choose which laws we think are important and which we think are not.

I usually do read from the King James version of the bible yes. However when I refer to James I refer to the book of James in the newtestiment.

Well, we're getting into a whole very sticky situation here, but everyone is being civil, so yay!





Well, I'm really not interested in trying to argue, but I will just say this: Large jaw bones don't just appear in a few years of a diet of tough food. Our bodies are constantly evolving and changing very gradually, and I don't believe it happens in just a few thousand years.

Now as for purgatory, Rebel_A96, I think this is what your mother (and me!) is refering to. In the Bible, the word Purgatory never appears. But that doesn't mean the doctrines are unbiblical. But the Bible does tell of another place that is neither heaven or hell.
This passage helps me understand God's merciful way of helping us prepare to enter the "wedding feast of the Lamb". (try looking up Revelation 21:27, or Matthew 22:1-14)


Again, this is all very complicated stuff, and I don't want to pretend for a second that I know everything on the matter...It is so confusing. I had to consult my Bible and my Catechism (which is basically a complete summary of what Catholics all over the world believe in common)
So yeah...

Indeed. Everyone is staying civil and that we should. One of largest problems in the christian world today (I would think) are those who can not be civil. *shrugs*

Well, as you I don't want to get into an argument here. But for the jaw bones etc... you must keep a few things in mind. It wasn't a few years of tough food, it was their entire life.
The Australian aborigenese (sp?? ) for example not only ate tough food their whole life but they used their jaws as vices and tools in their day to day life. And that is scientifically proven to build up larger bone structures around the jaws, and above the eyes.

Secondly you have to keep in mind that people long ago were living for 100 or even 200 years after the flood, some much longer. So then you have an even longer time where they are using their jaws muscles to build up the bone structure etc...


I realize many christians believe in Evolution, but I try to have a biblical foundation for every beliefe. If you can prove to me, from the bible, that evolution took place then I'll believe it. until then i must stick with Special six day Creationism since that is the clearest teaching from the bible.



As for purgatory. i do know those verses. However, reading Revelation 21:27 it seems to me that it speaks of heaven... That is my understanding of it.
Once again in Matthew 22:1-14 it even says "2The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son."

So... sorry but I just don't quite understand how you get purgatory from that. *shrugs*

Again this is just my personal beliefes and understandings.

If you would like, Jax, I can ask my mother where she first found out about purgatory. I just remember she telling me of that one day and after our conversation I thought about it and it seemed right to me.

Thanks for answering my other questions, everyone. I'm understanding it a bit better now. And yes, it is great to talk about issues like this and see everyone acting in a civil manner. If this was another site that I used to go to, the topic would already be locked. So I think that says something about BH.

But the Bible does tell of another place that is neither heaven or hell.--Exactly Dash, that's what my mother told me when she found out about it.

this is all very complicated stuff, and I don't want to pretend for a second that I know everything on the matter
^I agree with Dash there again too. I'm not the best person to ask about religious questions, but I try to answer them the best to my knowledge.

Sure Rebel. I would love to hear where your mother first found out about it.

Mainly I'm just curious in learning about other people's beliefes and why they believe them.

And yeah, it's all very complicated and I don't for one second claim to know it all or even be right on everything I say is right. I'm gonna make mistakes, I just do my best, which in the end is really all any of us can do.

And yeah... i am on another forum that this thing would have been locked after the first few posts! lol So ditto to that.

personally, I think the Heaven/hell thing is just to make people see death as a good thing instead of being afraid of it. It's like running away from the truth.
I don't really mind if every1 believes in it, but I don't like it when it gets out of hand and people worry their whole lives cuz they dont know if they will go to heaven or hell... Its silly to worry about it, really...

Really? I find that point of view quite interesting. I disagree, but it really is interesting.

I mean.... the way I think about it...

You are going to spend eternity somewhere.

You can choose eternal paradise with the God of love where there will be no tears, no bad things ever, and everything will be perfect...

Or you can choose eternal damnation where you will be dying but never die, in pain and long for death, but it will continue forever in constant torture...

To me... thats something worth worying about. *shrugs*

But each to his/her own.

Don't worry I haven't forgotten to ask my mother where she heard the purgatory from, but I have a question for Shark1. Shark1--so you don't think there is such a thing as heaven or hell? So when people die, where do you think they go? Just curious questions.

I have two theories:

One- They just Parish into the land like any other animal or however you think of it...

Two- Their soles stay on Earth (no up and no down) But a different time period... Like.. Ummm... They live, overlapping us... Get it? They can't see us and we cant see them but we all keep on living normally... Or not... Lets say that they have a war in their side of the overlapped world and they have this huge bomb or something, So thats why We see a tornado or sumthing on our side.. I dont know.. Its just my theory... =)

Sort of like Back to the Future? I think I get you; do all Jewish people not believe in a heaven/hell?

Naa. Some do. But its like Jews believe in god/bible- but I don't and Im still Jewish. I believe in what makes more sense to me..

Heaven and hell is etched in like everyones brains so now and then u hear people talking about it all over the world even though they dont believ it. Its not weather u believe it or not- cuz theres no way you would surley know, anyway.. so its just like a daily talk to most people... (like the saying: For Heaven's sake. Or: What the Hell is wrong? and many more sayings...)

So when you say "no one knows if there's a heaven/hell" do you mean for the people that don't believe in God (Jesus)? Cause those that believe in Jesus know there is such a real thing as both of them as He says so. Just curious again.

>> If you would like, Jax, I can ask my mother where she first found out about purgatory <<

It is basic Catholic doctrine taught in Catechism classes.

Katie, read my comments about Evil on Rodent Retreat?

Wow i have been away for some time, but now im back so i can answer=)

Every person believes whatever he/she wants to.
u dont have to not believe in heaven/hell if u dont belive in god... and same thing other way around...
i just know that im one of those ppl who -sometimes- have those feeling that god exists while at other times i dont belive that..
but u can never know, u know.. so its just somthing nice to believe in...

On any other forum this discussion would by now be a fistfight.

Well done

I have a question, that with no other active religious discussion open, fits in here.

If you are religious: How do you pick which parts of the Bible or other scripture you believe in?

Umm... better elaborate on that a bit.
Most religious people I know pick and choose which parts of (let's for the sake of argument say) the Bible they think make sense, and believe in those specific parts.

So my question is that if you do that; how do you know that you haven't left something important out? Maybe something that's in the Bible, that you've rejected either because you're not comfortable with it or because you think some of the text shouldn't be read literally, is just as important as another part of the text which you cherish and live by? How do you pick the parts you incorporate into your personal belief system?

Good question Blue, for those that are Christian Catholic we believe in the New Testament as that's what Jesus told us to believe in, plus the fact His disciples wrote it so you know it's true because they were with Him and received the Holy Spirit within them afterwards to keep on spreading God's words to other countries, etc.

To me personally, I don't think one should follow the Bible literally because, I know that it says women should not work and to only serve man, I can't quote where this is from I've only heard people say this. I don't think that's right, I think a woman should be allowed to get a job and yes while she should listen to her husband, I don't really think it ought to be serving him. If you know what I mean.

A lot of facts are being discovered everyday and there's this program my mother watches called EWTN that explains a lot of what the scripture means so we know if we're following it accordingly. I hope what I answered explained a bit, Blue.

It did, thanks for your reply!

Surely there are bits of the old testament that are relevant to catholics? The commandments for example. But ok, if the new testament is the most important I'm still curious about why some parts of the new testament seem more noteworthy than others.

You mentioned the part about women... Why do you reject this particular part of the text? That's the core of my question. Why isn't the part about women as significant to you as turning the other cheek for example? If it's in the new testament, shouldn't you embrace this message along with the rest?

Surely there are bits of the old testament that are relevant to catholics?
^Sure we still obey the Ten Commandments and other pieces, but we really go by the New Testament cause that's when Jesus came and He told us to listen to that part. Plus it was written by His disciples.

why some parts of the new testament seem more noteworthy than others
^As I said above they were written by His disciples who were with Him every step of His teachings and when Jesus did ascend into Heaven, He made sure His disciples would spread the word of God to others and were blessed with the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament is good, but it really doesn't, what's the word I'm looking for?, it teaches to still follow prophets and not God, it talks about the coming of God, but isn't written in His words or what He said. I hope I'm making myself clear here.

Why do you reject this particular part of the text?
^Because it was written in a time where women were just that, they had no rights. God sees us all as being equal, but back then a woman was to just work at home (nothing wrong with stay-at-home mom's as my mother is one of them) and you're not allowed to get a job. Not allowed? What is this the 13th century? I don't think God would condemn us if we got a job; I think He actually wants people to get one and go for what they love. We just have to ask for His help along the way. Now-a-days we're allowed to do things, I still believe in a lot of what it says though. I'm against abortion and gay marriage, but as far as the woman getting jobs--I know I want one!

as significant to you as turning the other cheek for example?
^Some people do follow that and have told others to just turn the other cheek and don't do anything back and for some instances I think that's true. But when you're repeatedly getting struck or someone's talking against you; I think it's your mandate (is that the right word?) to speak up. And again I don't think God is going to say, "Oh you spoke up, bad you, right to hell with you." I believe He always gives people chances.
I've heard it where if you believe in the death penalty than it's against God's words. Well maybe it is cause God doesn't wish death on anybody, but I'm on the fence with that subject. Some people believe in a vengeful God, God isn't vengeful; He's loving, gracious, and forgiving.

If it's in the new testament, shouldn't you embrace this message along with the rest?
^Yes we should embrace what the New Testament says as it's God's words basically. That's it in a nutshell. But some take it too literally, like my example above with the women and I don't think God meant for us to scrutinize what He meant. Some things, yes, need explaining so we can do it the right way, but others I think (like I said before) were written from that day and age.

I hope I answered what you wanted. I'll be gone till Monday, so I'm sorry if I don't answer your next questions right away.

Thanks again for putting up with my questions Rebel. You're a great sport!


To modern women like you and me - it's obvious that we shouldn't continue living like they did in Biblical times.

What I'm trying to figure out is - what makes some parts of the Bible out of date and what makes other parts relevant even today?
(I'm also wondering how you know that God loves men and women equally if the evidence suggests otherwise... but I'm letting that one go, for now. )

In this case, you very sensibly pointed out that the Bible was written in a time when women had no rights, so that's why you don't choose to take this part literally. I assume you feel the same way about slavery and other antiquated practices? Things that were widely accepted in Biblical times, which aren't acceptable anymore.

Here's the thing: Who decides what's out of date and what's not?

You mentioned gay marriage as an example. What makes the Bible text about homosexuals different from the text about women? Both women and homosexuals are widely accepted as being equal members of today's society. Why then don't you approve of gay marriage?

Thanks again for putting up with my questions Rebel. You're a great sport!
^No problem Blue, I don't mind. I just hope you can understand me as I'm not the best one to always answer these kinds of questions even though I believe.

What I'm trying to figure out is - what makes some parts of the Bible out of date and what makes other parts relevant even today?
^I think it depends on the individual person on who decides what is updated and what isn't. And as for your crossed out part, God has always stated He loves everyone and everyone is equal in His eyes.

I assume you feel the same way about slavery and other antiquated practices? Things that were widely accepted in Biblical times, which aren't acceptable anymore.
^Yes I believe slavery is wrong and should be ended. Most parts it is over with, but I hear in some parts of the world it's still going on and it should be stopped. Yes and that goes with a lot of other methods that were used, like stoning or crucifixion, I don't believe in those as they're too harsh of a punishment.

Both women and homosexuals are widely accepted as being equal members of today's society. Why then don't you approve of gay marriage?
^God specifically says in the Bible that a man should not lay with another man and a woman should not lay with another woman. A man and a woman defines marriage and it's always been like that and I believe it. I think even if I didn't believe in God, I would find it gross that two men or two women slept with one another.

I think it's okay for them to be together, heck my mother's cousin is gay and I have no problems with that, but as far as them wanting to "marry" I think that's wrong as marriage isn't defined that way. If they want some rights in marriage, go for it, but not the ones where it's man/woman. Not to get off topic, but you always hear that "Oh the Catholics this that with gay marriage"...well I've heard all religions don't like it, not just ours.

I have a question...

If there was no religion, none at all, how many wars would have been avoided over the last thousand years?....

Wow... not sure how I missed all this! lol


Here is my two cents... or three or four.


First off, blue you asked about how to know what scripture is relevant and what is not.


From a biblical view point...


2 Timothy 3:14-17 says this.

14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Note that Paul tells Timothy to "Continue in what you have learned.."

And that "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."


Now you have to keep in mind that during this time there was no New Testiment. So any time the apostles refer to scripture or the law (the hebrew word Torah) or "The prophets" it always refers to the old testement. Those were the only scriptures they had during that time.

So by this sense the bible itself interprets itself (which is how it should be) All scripture.

I understand some people follow just new testement, but personaly I don't agree with that. I can, however, respect that and agree to disagree. None of us are going to get EVERYTHING right, especially not me.


You also mentioned wemon not working and slavery. Again, I think you were pretty much on Rebel. Again you have to keep in mind the setting of the day and culture it was writen. That was how the culture worked back then. I don't think it is wrong for wemon to get jobs, however it wasn't wrong in the bible times either really.

The wemon were working pretty much all day, just like everyone else. But during those times they had little time to do much else than raise their children, cook etc... but they did grind grain and such things as well.


As far as slavery goes, biblical slavery really isn't quite the same as modern day slavery either. In biblical times a slave was payed for his work and (suposed to be) treated basically as a member of the family or a guest. The bible does talk about men who don't treat their slaves right and that it is wrong. Also, after seven years all slaves were released, so it was more like a seven year work contract that you got paid for but couldn't get out of in a way. (unless of course you get into bond servants but they chose to be slaves for life and that is a whole other issue)


As far as being gay goes... I don't want to offend anyone but I draw a line there. If anyone knows what happened to Sodom and Gamorah and knows it happened largly because of gay activity and other immoral activity you know the bible speaks plainly against this kind of behavior. So if you are looking from a biblical viewpoint there is no exscuse for being gay. Bow if you don't claim to be a christian, then I'm fine with you being gay because you have freedom of choice that God gave all humans.



Also, you asked how do you know God loves man and women the same. First off you need to understand that "love" to God is not the same as love is to us. Infact the bible tells us that we can't even comprehend the greatness of His love for us. But it never states anywhere that God loves either gender more or less than the other.
Man was created first, and women was created from man so man is the "dominate" gender if you want to put it that way, but this really only goes for in a mairage. However, God instructs the men very specifically to love their wife and to take good care of them. Even though mairage is lead by the man, it's a partnership. If either wife or husband gets thinking they are incharge and the other must do what they say,t hat's not right, because a man who loves his wife is not going to push her around and such. I believe that is partially why God gave that commandment.


There are some things in the bible that only apply to Jews, some that only apply to men or wemon jews and some that only apply to the priests! There are a total of just over 700 commandments in the bible I believe and most of them don't even apply to us because of the above selections.
In america we have over 2 bilion laws... so it's not like God has burdened us with tons of laws.

There are others that are out dated. When Jesus came it says he did away with the "hand writing of ordinance."

Since He died as an eternal sacrifice for ALL sin the sacrificial system is no longer needed from the old testement and the things related to it.


The ten commandments, however, certainly are still rellevent. To point out the distinction...

The laws of Moses were writen by moses on paper (paper is a symbol of something that passes) and put in a pocket on the outside of the arck of the covonent.

The ten commandments were writen on stone ( a symbol of something timeless and unpassing) and were written by GOD's own finger and placed inside the arc of the covonent.

So, if I don't have you all totally confused by now... I've done better than I feel like I have. haha


Now to address your question Clave, honestly I don't think the lack of religeon would stop many wars. You see wars are mostly waged for personal ideals and gain. While often times people will use some religeon to back their war, it's not the root of the issue. And if someone really wants to justify killing others I think they will do it with or without religeon.

The crusades, for example, are strictly against christian principles which shows you either the people behind them were really messed up or they had a hidden agenda and used religeon to back their effort.

Unfortunately many religeons have this problem, but the bible says you will "know them by their fruits." So if someone is doing something that is against the bible (assuming they claim to be a christian) you know they are not following God like they should be.

Oh, okay. That answers my question. If I'd been religious I would probably have done the same thing.

The thing that puzzles me is - what if you choose to ignore something that's a deal breaker in God's eyes?
Just because people don't feel comfortable with something and choose to ignore it doesn't automatically make it invalid, does it? It's in the Bible along with everything else.

It's a hopeless question, I know. You have to ignore parts of the Bible, I understand that. I'm just wondering if you're not worried that you won't get into heaven because you've edited out too much of the Bible?



Sorry for putting you on the spot but do you have a passage where this is spelled out? I'm just being curious, so it's no problem if you don't have an answer for this. Maybe Jax can help out?



The Bible says a lot of things which it spells out in great detail. The stoning disobedient children for example. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) Things that we've established that people ignore because they don't feel that it's relevant any more. It's just a shame that you personally don't feel that the text about homosexuality is out of date too.



I'm convinced that if there was no religion people would simply find some other reason to be shitty to each other. Human beings are savage, greedy and vengeful animals. Religion, imho, is just another excuse among other pointless excuses to wage war.


Thanks also to Jax for chiming in. It was interesting reading.

Honestly, Blue, I think you are asking a VERY important question! How do you know what parts of the bible you can "Ignor" so to speak.

As I shared earlier Paul himself said that ALL scripture was profitable. (refering back to the old testement)

However I also shared that the new testiment said that the "hand writing of ordinance" was done away with by the sacrifice of Jesus.

So, my point being, it is not up to man to decide what in the bible is important or not important. The bible is to interpret itself. We are human, and subject to error. Certainly everyone will, undouptedly choose their own interpretation of the bible but you always have to be willing to question your own views, lining them up with the bible. So if you have a view that is not in line with the bible then you need to change your views. (assuming you are wanting to keep in line with the bible, which anyone who claims to be achrsitian should want)

For those who choose the life of a christian they are obligated to follow God's laws and it is not our place to pick and choose which parts of His law we are going to follow. James says anyone who breaks the least of the commandments has broke all! Because the law is like a chain... if you break even a single link in the chain it fails.

And to know when to interpret things literaly and figuratively you need to spend time getting to know God and He will guide you towards the path that He wants you to take. It's not a clear cut thing.. and there is plenty of errors made by all of us... but the better we get to know God the closer to his will we will be.






As for the subject on God's impartial love, there are many examples in the bible where it talks about partiality being bad. such as James 2:1-13. (check out biblegateway.com to look up verses if you don't have a place. It was pretty easy for me)

"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is LOVE." 1 Corinthians 13:13

We also have John 3:16 that says.... "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begoten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perrish but have everlasting life." the bible makes it clear that this sacrifice was for aL humans, not just one gender. In fact the hebrew word that is used when it says Whosoever literaly means Some of all types, all, everyone, and leaves no room to exclude anyone for race, gender, or anything.

John 17:23 (New King James Version) says...
"23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. "

So in other words God loves us as much as He loved his own Son! And again, there is no excluding anyone for any reason such as race, gender etc... the only stipulations God puts on things is that we believe in Him and follow His laws.

Romans 8:35-39 also talks about how great God's love is, again there is no rejection of one gender over the other. And since we know from James that god is unchanging we know that if there is no hint of favoratism one place then there will not be other places.

check out this link it goes into good details. http://net-burst.net/hope/special.htm

Hope that answeres your questions in some way.